kentbigdog
(Lost and Confused) | | Posted: Jun 12, 2013 - 12:01 | |
ottojschlosser wrote:Simply one of the best pieces of pop music ever.
Agreed. I haven't heard this for ages and had to stop, crank it up and sit back to enjoy. Al Stewart is just a great writer. |
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jmsmy
(Music Town, Klein, Texas) | | Posted: Jun 12, 2013 - 12:00 | |
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ottojschlosser
(Beaverton OR (no, really, that's its name)) | | Posted: Jun 12, 2013 - 11:59 | |
Simply one of the best pieces of pop music ever.
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old_shep
(Iowa) | | Posted: May 30, 2013 - 14:28 | |
h8rhater wrote:
The Soviets also lost 400,000 killed/wounded in a brief pointless war with Finland just prior to WWII while the Fins lost roughly 27,000 killed/wounded.
The fact that they threw their troops away as a due to an incompetent officer corps resulting from the pre-war purges of Stalin does not prove that they carried the burden of the war. In the early portions of Barbarossa the Soviets gave up men and materiel at unprecedented rates in exchange for space and time. As the war went on, the Soviets developed much more effective leadership and their casualty rates declined. Your citing of the Kiev kesselschacht in 1941 (and there were several such envelopments that year that resulted in similar losses to the Soviets) shows that their losses in military manpower were front loaded.
Russian tactics also tended to lend themselves to a higher casualty rates in combat.
That being said, there can be no doubt that the Russian front (with a front line extending over 2000 miles) consumed massive amounts of Nazi resources and manpower. Had that manpower been freed up for use elsewhere, the outcome of the war could have been quite different. I just wouldn't go so far as to say the rest of the war was just a sideshow.
And lets not forget that the single most dangerous assignment (read: highest casualty rate for troops involved) in WWII was that of the Merchant Marine involved in the allied Murmansk convoy run that delivered much needed supplies (especially food) that helped to keep the Soviet war machine functioning. Through the Murmansk Run, the United States supplied the Soviet Union with 15,000 aircraft, 7,000 tanks, 350,000 tons of explosives, and 15,000,000 pairs of boots. American boots made a difference on the Eastern Front, especially during the harsh winters.
To paraphrase Stalin, "Yeah, your boots, our blood." |
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h8rhater
| | Posted: Apr 10, 2013 - 12:32 | |
kcar wrote:
LizK, you have it right. I have read that slightly over 80% of German casualties during WWII occurred on the Eastern Front. You cite 430,000 US deaths during WWII. The Soviets repeatedly lost 400,000 troops or more in single battles during the war, for instance near Kiev in Sept. '41. I have seen respected documentaries that put total Soviet military and civilian deaths at 27 million.
According to Wikipedia, the US began fighting near Europe in November of '42, as part of Operation Torch, when General Eisenhower attacked Axis forces in North Africa. US troops according to Wikipedia began fighting in Europe itself in July '43, during Operation Husky, an amphibious assault on Sicily. The main US and British assault on Nazi Germany, D-Day in Normandy, was June 6 1944, less than year before VE day (May 8, 1945).
Fighting in the USSR began in June '41. The Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe inflicted overwhelming losses on the Soviet military but eventually suffered devastating losses of their own because of incidents such as the USSR's Operation Uranus, the Battle of Stalingrad (at least 300,000 Axis troops), and the battle of Kursk (500,000 Axis casualties and POWs).
Finally, I point anyone still reading to footnotes 8 and 9 of the Wikipedia article on the Eastern Front. Winston Churchill and the historian Norman Davies agree in summarizing that the Eastern Front and the Soviet Union primarily caused the end of the Nazi war machine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(World_War_II)#cite_note-7
The Soviets also lost 400,000 killed/wounded in a brief pointless war with Finland just prior to WWII while the Fins lost roughly 27,000 killed/wounded. The fact that they threw their troops away as a due to an incompetent officer corps resulting from the pre-war purges of Stalin does not prove that they carried the burden of the war. In the early portions of Barbarossa the Soviets gave up men and materiel at unprecedented rates in exchange for space and time. As the war went on, the Soviets developed much more effective leadership and their casualty rates declined. Your citing of the Kiev kesselschacht in 1941 (and there were several such envelopments that year that resulted in similar losses to the Soviets) shows that their losses in military manpower were front loaded. Russian tactics also tended to lend themselves to a higher casualty rates in combat. That being said, there can be no doubt that the Russian front (with a front line extending over 2000 miles) consumed massive amounts of Nazi resources and manpower. Had that manpower been freed up for use elsewhere, the outcome of the war could have been quite different. I just wouldn't go so far as to say the rest of the war was just a sideshow. And lets not forget that the single most dangerous assignment (read: highest casualty rate for troops involved) in WWII was that of the Merchant Marine involved in the allied Murmansk convoy run that delivered much needed supplies (especially food) that helped to keep the Soviet war machine functioning. Through the Murmansk Run, the United States supplied the Soviet Union with 15,000 aircraft, 7,000 tanks, 350,000 tons of explosives, and 15,000,000 pairs of boots. American boots made a difference on the Eastern Front, especially during the harsh winters. |
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1wolfy
(Mission Viejo California) | | Posted: Apr 10, 2013 - 11:48 | |
I liked it as well idiot_wind wrote:What a strange context for a song..but's it so freaking beautiful. So it's cool.
Al needs more air play. |
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BLADERUNNER
(Port City on the Cape Fear) | | Posted: Apr 10, 2013 - 11:46 | |
As the famous general once said, War is all Hell. |
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idiot_wind
| | Posted: Apr 10, 2013 - 11:41 | |
What a strange context for a song..but's it so freaking beautiful. So it's cool.
Al needs more air play. |
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rdo
(DC) | | Posted: Feb 06, 2013 - 16:17 | |
One of the most interesting things I have read about Operation Barbarossa was the fact that it totally took Stalin by surprise. I mean total, absolute, shocking surprise. He was even warned ahead of time via a spy from Japan. He refused to believe the intelligence and ignored it. For days after the invasion he was incapacitated and out of commission. Some feared the shock had killed him. He could not believe his pact with Hitler (the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact) had been broken. What amazes me about this is that two people as evil as this actually trusted each other. It's strange how Stalin never read Hitler's own very public writings about how he felt about Russians. |
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Lazarus
(Bethany) | | Posted: Jan 06, 2013 - 08:00 | |
WonderLizard wrote:
Sadness of all sadness. Love, joy, wit—a profound sense of what she needed to give back. I never knew her. Would have liked to.
Thanks for the link, romeo.
You're welcome, friend... miss her so much... |
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Johnny-smooth
(On my bicycle) | | Posted: Nov 04, 2012 - 14:05 | |
Cynaera wrote:
After reading the other comments, I realize my own comment was totally self-involved and ignorant. Sorry. Let's get back to politics now. Guessing the music takes a second fiddle to the actual events. Which only makes Al Stewart's music that much more powerful. His light, lispy voice decries the incredible, powerful message about which he sings. People really have to listen to his songs in order to actually hear them. I just woke up, metaphorically.
Don't underestimate that voice - it packs a serious wallop.
It is an intense song that one must stop all that they are doing to truly listen to what is a very sad tale. The closing lines almost too painful to hear. |
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schayler
(Denver) | | Posted: Nov 04, 2012 - 14:02 | |
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islandboy
| | Posted: Nov 04, 2012 - 14:00 | |
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Cyclehawk
(Athens GA) | | Posted: Nov 04, 2012 - 13:59 | |
Great to hear this here. The album is outstanding with a lot of historical references. Post WW2 Blues from the same album is one of my favorites.
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rdo
(DC) | | Posted: Sep 02, 2012 - 16:45 | |
kcar wrote:
LizK, you have it right. I have read that slightly over 80% of German casualties during WWII occurred on the Eastern Front. You cite 430,000 US deaths during WWII. The Soviets repeatedly lost 400,000 troops or more in single battles during the war, for instance near Kiev in Sept. '41. I have seen respected documentaries that put total Soviet military and civilian deaths at 27 million.
According to Wikipedia, the US began fighting near Europe in November of '42, as part of Operation Torch, when General Eisenhower attacked Axis forces in North Africa. US troops according to Wikipedia began fighting in Europe itself in July '43, during Operation Husky, an amphibious assault on Sicily. The main US and British assault on Nazi Germany, D-Day in Normandy, was June 6 1944, less than year before VE day (May 8, 1945).
Fighting in the USSR began in June '41. The Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe inflicted overwhelming losses on the Soviet military but eventually suffered devastating losses of their own because of incidents such as the USSR's Operation Uranus, the Battle of Stalingrad (at least 300,000 Axis troops), and the battle of Kursk (500,000 Axis casualties and POWs).
Finally, I point anyone still reading to footnotes 8 and 9 of the Wikipedia article on the Eastern Front. Winston Churchill and the historian Norman Davies agree in summarizing that the Eastern Front and the Soviet Union primarily caused the end of the Nazi war machine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(World_War_II)#cite_note-7
Lizk, if she or he had bothered to read just a little more, would have quickly realized that she or he was reiterating my own point. |
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WonderLizard
(2,755.46 mi. due east of Paradise) | | Posted: Aug 02, 2012 - 10:36 | |
romeotuma wrote: Sadness of all sadness. Love, joy, wit—a profound sense of what she needed to give back. I never knew her. Would have liked to. Thanks for the link, romeo. |
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WayUpNorth
| | Posted: Aug 02, 2012 - 05:50 | |
coloradojohn wrote:One of the best stories set to music ever. Superb job of choice and arrangement of appropriate atmospheric elements without going over the top, as well. I must sit and devote my whole innerscape to this, every time I hear it, whether on my iPod or here at RP. Floors me, without fail... Thanks, RP! Y E S ! !  |
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keenevision
(Near Boston) | | Posted: Aug 02, 2012 - 05:48 | |
Probably Al's best album (at least my fav). I played this to DEATH in college.
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(former member)
(hotel in Las Vegas) | | Posted: May 30, 2012 - 21:43 | |
Cynaera wrote:I was running a virus-scan while this song was on, and had my browser off so couldn't respond before....... But I just LOVE Al Stewart! I love his wispy, clear voice and the way he strings the words together to make magic. My all-time favorite song of his is still "Time Passages," but I'm hearing more of his music on RP and loving it. He feeds my muse - NaNoWriMo is coming up (National Novel Writing Month) and if I can continue to hear wonderful music like this (and if my stupid keyboard will let me type as fast as I think!), I might sign up again. It was a harrowing, stress-filled month, and there were times when I didn't meet my self-set quota of however-many-words-a-day would net me that magic number of 50,000, but I did it last year. Of course, the story was total crap, but it was never about quality - it was about quantity. That's what makes it so much fun. Yeah, I guess I'll do it again this year. I have a germ of a story idea, and since I'm on unemployment right now, it's the perfect time to write a novel. Please, let Al Stewart be prevalent on the RP playlists in November, because I'll be up to my neck in writing. I love Al Stewart. Okay, I know I already wrote that, but it bears repeating, because if I can't meet the word-quota for NaNoWriMo, I'ma blame the lack of Al Stewart.  |
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wossName
(Earth) | | Posted: Apr 29, 2012 - 04:14 | |
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cc_rider
(Austin Texas. Y'all.) | | Posted: Mar 28, 2012 - 10:45 | |
Art_Carnage wrote:Well, this certainly goes on... and on... and on... and on... and... Just be glad you weren't in Moscow... |
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BLADERUNNER
(Port City on the Cape Fear) | | Posted: Mar 28, 2012 - 10:43 | |
Fantastic segue!! one of my all time Al Stewart songs. way to go RP
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thatgirly
| | Posted: Feb 25, 2012 - 21:58 | |
Good god! Thank you Bill for playing this Proustian madeleine of a track. I haven't heard it since I was ten, and every so often, the choral background verse has floated around in my head and teased me to discover the identity of this track, but it has eluded me for years. It entranced me as a kid and now the mystery is solved. I'm thrilled!
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Art_Carnage
(DeepintheheartofTexas) | | Posted: Feb 25, 2012 - 18:31 | |
Well, this certainly goes on... and on... and on... and on... and...
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kurtster
(Back in Ohiya, for now ...) | | Posted: Feb 25, 2012 - 18:30 | |
Always sounds good.
Makes me want to play some Shawn Phillips next ...
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coloradojohn
(Mile High on the Colorado Vibe, Cherry Creek, Denver) | | Posted: Feb 25, 2012 - 18:27 | |
One of the best stories set to music ever. Superb job of choice and arrangement of appropriate atmospheric elements without going over the top, as well. I must sit and devote my whole innerscape to this, every time I hear it, whether on my iPod or here at RP. Floors me, without fail... Thanks, RP!
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frankdelange
(Sweden) | | Posted: Nov 22, 2011 - 15:03 | |
I just uploaded "Red Army Blues" as found on "A Pagan Place" by The Waterboys. That song is a natural successor to "Roads to Moscow" - so natural that I just paused RP to play it from my personal collection. So natural, in fact, that I hope Bill will add it the next time "Roads to Moscow" comes by... |
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velocette
(Puget Sound, beneath the volcanoes) | | Posted: Oct 21, 2011 - 23:45 | |
woodchuk wrote:
Beautiful song belies the unimaginable brutality of the "Great Patriotic War." I believe the battle for Stalingrad holds the place of the most destructive military campaign ever fought in all of documented human history (in terms of life lost). IMHO no film is capable of describing, with any sense of the sheer terror involved, the viciousness and desperation of the house-to-house urban warfare in arctic winter conditions during the Stalingrad battle.. Could you participate in something like that and still be a human being, if you were lucky enough to have survived?
The worst part is what happened to the partisans and those unfortunate Russian soldiers captured —- no matter how briefly —- by the Germans. Read "The Unquiet Ghost: Russians Remember Stalin" by Adam Hochschild or "Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin" by Tim Snyder. Great song. Hauntingly evocative. |
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ferwoman
| | Posted: Oct 21, 2011 - 23:42 | |
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woodchuk
(Lunar Lagrange point L1) | | Posted: Sep 20, 2011 - 08:00 | |
Beautiful song belies the unimaginable brutality of the "Great Patriotic War." I believe the battle for Stalingrad holds the place of the most destructive military campaign ever fought in all of documented human history (in terms of life lost). IMHO no film is capable of describing, with any sense of the sheer terror involved, the viciousness and desperation of the house-to-house urban warfare in arctic winter conditions during the Stalingrad battle.. Could you participate in something like that and still be a human being, if you were lucky enough to have survived?
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