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hippiechick  (topsy turvy land)
Jan 13, 2010 - 10:53am

dmax wrote:
BUMP


 
MrsHobieJoe  (somewhere in Europe)
Jan 13, 2010 - 10:53am

cc_rider wrote:
I wonder if we might look at this disaster as an opportunity to rebuild Haiti with some semblance of order. Like, oh, a functioning government, for example. Problem is determining what kind of government: is the country really stable enough to support a straight-up democracy, or is some tighter form of control needed in the short term? I wonder if this is an opportunity to forge a new Haitian Constitution, you know?


No, really no. However bad the government is you really can't get involved in the process in that way. If there is anything we all have to have learnt from the last few years is that heavy handed guidance towards "democracy" doesn't work. I know I sound brutal and there are some things that can be done, some diplomatic approaches eg re human rights but a new Haitian Constitution has to come from the people of that country if they want it.



 
hippiechick  (topsy turvy land)
Jan 13, 2010 - 10:52am

Let's get back to the subject at hand, in case anyone is interested in helping. If you posted a link, please bump it forward.

 
islander  (Seattle)
Jan 13, 2010 - 10:51am

cc_rider wrote:

Better to obsess over an actual news story than most of the other carp that passes for news. Putting it front and center in the news may help motivate people to donate.

I wonder if we might look at this disaster as an opportunity to rebuild Haiti with some semblance of order . Like, oh, a functioning government , for example. Problem is determining what kind of government: is the country really stable enough to support a straight-up democracy, or is some tighter form of control needed in the short term? I wonder if this is an opportunity to forge a new Haitian Constitution , you know?

Of course the short term needs are most important, but eventually they'll have to start thinking about rebuilding. Who is going to help them do that, and what form is it going to take? Seems like a good opportunity for rebuilding the physical AND political/governmental infrastructure of the country.

Take a single applicable example: building codes for, say, any public building or building over 'X' stories tall (say, three). This would create 'safe(r) areas' for when (not if) the next disaster strikes. No point in creating building codes if there's no government to administer/enforce them. BOTH infrastructures are required.

Food for thought.

I've spent a good bit of time in Central America and the Caribbean in my life. I actually own some property in Roatan. I have friends and acquaintances in that region. I say these things to put a little perspective on what I'll say next.

The highlighted bits above show a particularly American point of view on the situation. And one that has been repeated w/o success many times in this part of the world. I'll be the first to admit that there are issues there. But I'll also be among the first to say that I think imposing our views of 'how things should be' is entirely the wrong approach. Things are different there. Each region has it's own peculiarities, but the general theme of slightly corrupt government, separation of classes, abject poverty, broken economies, poor building codes.... are all common. It's also what the people are used to, and really generally happy with. A lot of them come here for a time and then go back. They like what they have and despite the issues, some of the most content people I know live on little more than most of us pay for our cable packages.

Disaster relief needs to be just that. Some help to get over a very tragic incident. They will need immediate medical help, and near term help with food, water and shelter. Fortunately, Hurricane season is mostly past, but the general supply issues in the area will hinder rebuilding.

I'd love to see good building codes and a working regulatory environment to support them. But that is for them to put in place. Maybe this is an occasion to do so, maybe not, but it is certainly not our place to impose our standards, and if we try to do it now, it will look like a condition that comes with our good will, or even worse an opportunistic power grab. Let's do what we do best: Use our lucky position in the world to provide support and help them get back on their feet. Let them take it from there.

Let's not think that this is an opportunity to make them more like us. Part of the charm an interest in that region is the different way we do things. I don't want to see it become south south Miami.


 
cc_rider  (Austin Texas. Y'all.)
Jan 13, 2010 - 10:51am

sirdroseph wrote:


It is OK, you used the word plebian, which is always cool!


Isn't 'plebian' an adjective rather than a noun? Shouldn't it be "shouldn't be bothered with us lowly plebes."?

Just checking...

 
samiyam  (Inner Outlands)
Jan 13, 2010 - 10:42am

sirdroseph wrote:


It is OK, you used the word plebian, which is always cool!


Hippiechick is right, though... the horrors of Haiti are truly painful to watch (which is why I've got my netflix account pulled up).


 
sirdroseph  (Yes)
Jan 13, 2010 - 10:40am

samiyam wrote:

Threadjackin' is my speciality...


It is OK, you used the word plebian, which is always cool! {#Yes} {#Wink}

 
samiyam  (Inner Outlands)
Jan 13, 2010 - 10:37am

dmax wrote:
samiyam wrote:
 
Coaxial  (543 miles west of Paradis,1491 miles east of Paradise)
Jan 13, 2010 - 10:37am

kysmet wrote:

me?


Yes ma'am, it shan't happen again. {#Good-vibes}

 
geordiezimmerman
Jan 13, 2010 - 10:36am

samiyam wrote:

Don't bother Coax, Geordie... he's a superior human and shouldn't be bothered with us lowly plebians.



Yeah so I guessed. Bless him.


 
(former member)
Jan 13, 2010 - 10:35am

samiyam wrote:

Don't bother Coax, Geordie... he's a superior human and shouldn't be bothered with us lowly plebians.




And is threadjacking


 
samiyam  (Inner Outlands)
Jan 13, 2010 - 10:35am

Coaxial wrote:

Have another beer and don't even begin to guess about what I think.


Don't bother Coax, Geordie... he's a superior human and shouldn't be bothered with us lowly plebians.




 
kysmet  (Central Florida)
Jan 13, 2010 - 10:32am

Coaxial wrote:
My comment was meant for K...Bless her heart she feels things so strongly that she gets all tied up inside...I was just trying to maybe help her take a step back so it isn't so painful for her...That is all.


me?


 
Coaxial  (543 miles west of Paradis,1491 miles east of Paradise)
Jan 13, 2010 - 10:31am

My comment was meant for K...Bless her heart she feels things so strongly that she gets all tied up inside...I was just trying to maybe help her take a step back so it isn't so painful for her...That is all. {#Good-vibes}



 
sirdroseph  (Yes)
Jan 13, 2010 - 10:23am

rosedraws wrote:

If only the whole world were Socialist.

Randy, you seem to be in a sharp-tongued mood today ... but I do want to say that there is merit to feeling the tragedy of another person. And when there are millions of tragedies to feel, it's hard to decide how much to try to connect, and how much to stay aloof for self-protection.

When we observe the pain of the Haitians, and when we do so with a sense of love, and perhaps prayer, we are doing a part in sharing the burden. And, if people are moved to send financial support ('cause it's gonna take a whole lot of money) then that's even better.

Often, it's hard to keep from obsessing. But folks will figure out a level of attachment that works for them. Give 'em a chance to adjust.




You mean like us? {#Wink}

 
rosedraws  (close to the edge)
Jan 13, 2010 - 10:21am

cc_rider wrote:

I wonder if we might look at this disaster as an opportunity to rebuild Haiti with some semblance of order.

If only the whole world were Socialist.

Randy, you seem to be in a sharp-tongued mood today ... but I do want to say that there is merit to feeling the tragedy of another person. And when there are millions of tragedies to feel, it's hard to decide how much to try to connect, and how much to stay aloof for self-protection.

When we observe the pain of the Haitians, and when we do so with a sense of love, and perhaps prayer, we are doing a part in sharing the burden. And, if people are moved to send financial support ('cause it's gonna take a whole lot of money) then that's even better.

Often, it's hard to keep from obsessing. But folks will figure out a level of attachment that works for them. Give 'em a chance to adjust.

{#Group-hug}


 
Coaxial  (543 miles west of Paradis,1491 miles east of Paradise)
Jan 13, 2010 - 10:03am

geordiezimmerman wrote:
I guess your opinion was the same when 9/11 happened Coax?


Have another beer and don't even begin to guess about what I think. {#Cheers}

 
geordiezimmerman
Jan 13, 2010 - 9:57am

I guess your opinion was the same when 9/11 happened Coax?

 
cc_rider  (Austin Texas. Y'all.)
Jan 13, 2010 - 9:57am

Coaxial wrote:
Without a doubt it is a terrible thing that happened...Is obsessing over it going to really help?


Better to obsess over an actual news story than most of the other carp that passes for news. Putting it front and center in the news may help motivate people to donate.

I wonder if we might look at this disaster as an opportunity to rebuild Haiti with some semblance of order. Like, oh, a functioning government, for example. Problem is determining what kind of government: is the country really stable enough to support a straight-up democracy, or is some tighter form of control needed in the short term? I wonder if this is an opportunity to forge a new Haitian Constitution, you know?

Of course the short term needs are most important, but eventually they'll have to start thinking about rebuilding. Who is going to help them do that, and what form is it going to take? Seems like a good opportunity for rebuilding the physical AND political/governmental infrastructure of the country.

Take a single applicable example: building codes for, say, any public building or building over 'X' stories tall (say, three). This would create 'safe(r) areas' for when (not if) the next disaster strikes. No point in creating building codes if there's no government to administer/enforce them. BOTH infrastructures are required.

Food for thought.


 
hippiechick  (topsy turvy land)
Jan 13, 2010 - 9:56am

Coaxial wrote:


You know maybe if you turned your TV off you'd have more luck trying to find a way to make money...


Thanks the the advice Randy


 
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