Location: The dreaming spires Gender: Zodiac: Chinese Yr:
Posted:
Nov 5, 2010 - 4:52am
geordiezimmerman wrote:
For what it's worth I never voted for Blair. The labour party ruined itself as soon as they became 'new' Labour. New Labour just meant more like the tories if you ask me.
I wasn't referring to you Geordie, and I agree with you about the Labour party. It's politicians in general
I'm not very good at putting things into words myself, but what you said here is just what I was thinking. Especially about Blair. Labour supporters are very good at pointing out the failure of the other parties, but conveniently forget about how their policies often fail - dismally
For what it's worth I never voted for Blair. The labour party ruined itself as soon as they became 'new' Labour. New Labour just meant more like the tories if you ask me.
Location: The dreaming spires Gender: Zodiac: Chinese Yr:
Posted:
Nov 4, 2010 - 2:30pm
beamends wrote:
They've always done it, in every country in the world. And always will.
I'm not pro coalition, I treat all politicians with equal contempt, I'm very fair about that. Someone doing a u-turn on a particular policy is no big deal - for all I know they might have found when looking at UK Plc's books that other choices would be more painful. All through the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's we had governments of all flavours who put party dogma over reality and look where that got us. Far better to say "Well, sorry, but we just cannot do that, here's Plan B."
What does worry me is the likes of Blair by-passing Parliament (frequently, including taking us to war) and operating as an autocrat. That is really serious as it undermines the whole democracy thing. Even Thatcher never dared do that.
I have no idea how old you are, but I have to say I'm detecting a high level naivety about how politics works. Idealism is great, but rarely achievable. Oh, and don't forget, Blair was elected on a promise of not introducing tuition fees. He stuck to his promise. Not.
I'm not very good at putting things into words myself, but what you said here is just what I was thinking. Especially about Blair. Labour supporters are very good at pointing out the failure of the other parties, but conveniently forget about how their policies often fail - dismally
How would you propose to judge these crimes? Would there be a sliding scale for severity? Do they get partial credit for half implemented programs? What would the punishment be? Do you think this would encourage participation in the political system by smart, good people?
The way I think it could work is this. Take the top 10 issues, so say, Tax, education, defense, etc, and each party makes a pledge (like the lib dems did on this occasion with reagrds to tuition fees) during their pre election campaigns. Once those pledges are made they have to stick to them if they gain power. I'm sick to death of whatever party wins the election coming out and saying 'Oh, the books were worse than we thought so we can no longer stick to the pledges we made, sorry, those tax breaks can no longer happen' That's a complete cop out and every single government does it, every time!
Basically, if they make a pledge they stick to them. If they don't it's punishable by either losing their seat or that particular seat is then voted for again by that mp's constituents. The very people who voted them into power should then be the very people who choose if they agree or understand the reasons they havn't stuck to their pledges.
It's all very well saying all governments lie to get into power but if that's case what is the point of voting for anyone? Who do you vote for, the ones who lie less? We are being well and truly stitched up here in the UK and people are slowly beginning to realise this. Their is a form of social cleansing going on too which is going to affect thousands if not millions of people and i wopuldn't be surprised if there are riots throughout this country the way this current stitch up of a government is carrying on.
And you think that's ok? The longer we let them lie in this way just to gain power then the more they will do it.Something has to be done about it
Personally i think it should be made a crime to lie in a pre-election campaign just to gain power and then to completely turn your back on those promises like the Lib-dems have done in this case. You may be pro-coalition but you still must be disgusted by the Lib dems turnaround here. If you're not then I hope you get everything you deserve from this coalition. There is compromise and there is downright lies and the lib dems are the latter. That's a fact, you just have to watch that video.
They've always done it, in every country in the world. And always will.
I'm not pro coalition, I treat all politicians with equal contempt, I'm very fair about that. Someone doing a u-turn on a particular policy is no big deal - for all I know they might have found when looking at UK Plc's books that other choices would be more painful. All through the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's we had governments of all flavours who put party dogma over reality and look where that got us. Far better to say "Well, sorry, but we just cannot do that, here's Plan B."
What does worry me is the likes of Blair by-passing Parliament (frequently, including taking us to war) and operating as an autocrat. That is really serious as it undermines the whole democracy thing. Even Thatcher never dared do that.
I have no idea how old you are, but I have to say I'm detecting a high level naivety about how politics works. Idealism is great, but rarely achievable. Oh, and don't forget, Blair was elected on a promise of not introducing tuition fees. He stuck to his promise. Not.
And you think that's ok? The longer we let them lie in this way just to gain power then the more they will do it.Something has to be done about it
Personally i think it should be made a crime to lie in a pre-election campaign just to gain power and then to completely turn your back on those promises like the Lib-dems have done in this case. You may be pro-coalition but you still must be disgusted by the Lib dems turnaround here. If you're not then I hope you get everything you deserve from this coalition. There is compromise and there is downright lies and the lib dems are the latter. That's a fact, you just have to watch that video.
How would you propose to judge these crimes? Would there be a sliding scale for severity? Do they get partial credit for half implemented programs? What would the punishment be? Do you think this would encourage participation in the political system by smart, good people?
Politicians of all leanings always have, and always will, make promises that it turns out later they cannot, or will not, keep. That's life.
And you think that's ok? The longer we let them lie in this way just to gain power then the more they will do it.Something has to be done about it
Personally i think it should be made a crime to lie in a pre-election campaign just to gain power and then to completely turn your back on those promises like the Lib-dems have done in this case. You may be pro-coalition but you still must be disgusted by the Lib dems turnaround here. If you're not then I hope you get everything you deserve from this coalition. There is compromise and there is downright lies and the lib dems are the latter. That's a fact, you just have to watch that video.
So you are saying you think they should be allowed to lie just to gain power? So far, there has been no compromise at all! All the lib dems have done so far is backed down on the pre-election pledges, remember, every single one of the lib dems party signed a pledge to say there would be no increase in tuition fees. EVERY.SINGLE.ONE. Coalition may mean compromise but there must be a line you do not cross, a time where your hard held principles cannot be changed and at the moment the lib dems are falling at every single hurdle. Power you see? It smells so good they are willing to give in to everything. They do have another option. They could break up the coalition because they do not agree with the scum and force a re-election which I think would be better for teh country but of course the lib dems know it's not good for their party. They knew as soon as they signed up with the filth they sold their very soul. They don't really exist any more as a party, everyone knopws they can't be trusted.
Politicians of all leanings always have, and always will, make promises that it turns out later they cannot, or will not, keep. That's life.
Being a full-time carer I'm right in the firing line for cuts, but getting out of the economic mess is far, far more important than squabbling over who said what, to whome, and when. Or would you prefer what has happened in the US where government is effectively going to be paralized for two years? At least, for better or worse, the ConDems are doing something. Now. While there are still choices.
So you are saying you think they should be allowed to lie just to gain power? So far, there has been no compromise at all! All the lib dems have done so far is backed down on the pre-election pledges, remember, every single one of the lib dems party signed a pledge to say there would be no increase in tuition fees. EVERY.SINGLE.ONE. Coalition may mean compromise but there must be a line you do not cross, a time where your hard held principles cannot be changed and at the moment the lib dems are falling at every single hurdle. Power you see? It smells so good they are willing to give in to everything. They do have another option. They could break up the coalition because they do not agree with the scum and force a re-election which I think would be better for teh country but of course the lib dems know it's not good for their party. They knew as soon as they signed up with the filth they sold their very soul. They don't really exist any more as a party, everyone knopws they can't be trusted.
Too much. I have to say its not something I'd look forward to, and it will inevitably make Uni impossible for a large section of the population. OTOH perhaps we need more people with specific technical skills from apprenticeships and less people with degrees? Is the 3 year BSc/BA still the best option for almost 50% of people with A levels?
btw The Ram at Exeter now stocks 'proper' beer on tap - yellowhammer and otter at the moment. Very nice.
I'd prefer a return to the old City & Guilds, ONC/D, HNC/D and then Degree (Polytechnic and University flavours). Apart from anything else, from my job searching, it must be intensely frustrating for graduates to find that they are now often doing jobs that were then done by Diploma students, with the same minimal wages and career prospects - i.e. technicians. I actually got to University via the (then) unusual route of doing an OND (with some extra HND units), turning down Exeter and Cantabury in favour of Portsmouth because the ex-Poly degree was much more appropriate for a jobbing engineer that the purely academic offerings from the other two. Employers knew the score, employee's knew the score, so no one was disappointed and everyone had a good idea of where they were going.
There is a financial aspect too. The vast majority of C&G, ONC, HNC, and a fair proportion of HND courses were paid for by employers (with government assistance), thus targeting spending at exactly the right targets, since students were already employed. If a return was made to the nearer 5 or 10% taking degrees then full grants could be back on the cards.
In the meantime, if we stick at 50% or more then I think it's only fair that those who benefit should pay for their higher education through loans or tax code changes - why should a worker struggling on minimum wage contribute to someone else's good fortune for no benefit to themselves? How much they should pay is something the Universities effectively decide, as they set the price by their spending choices.
hobiejoe
Oh Lord above, send down a dove; With wings as sharp as razors; To cut the throats of them mean blokes; That sells bad beer to sailors.
Location: Still in the tunnel, looking for the light. Gender: Zodiac: Chinese Yr:
Posted:
Nov 3, 2010 - 6:58pm
callum wrote:
Too much. I have to say its not something I'd look forward to, and it will inevitably make Uni impossible for a large section of the population. OTOH perhaps we need more people with specific technical skills from apprenticeships and less people with degrees? Is the 3 year BSc/BA still the best option for almost 50% of people with A levels?
btw The Ram at Exeter now stocks 'proper' beer on tap - yellowhammer and otter at the moment. Very nice.
1) Possibly, but having spent a while running the SU bars for my old University (a valuable contribution to student life said my tutor, magnanimously as they gave me another year to finish my degree) I say that it's a close run thing.....
More seriously your second point is bang on the nose.
I've opposed tuition fees from the get go, dammit I was out protesting in London against the first introduction of student loans way back when (I had my picture taken holding up one half of our SU banner by Special Branch, or whatever they call themselves today - you know, the guys with the cool cameras taking portrait shots from behind the line of coppers linking arms. I'm pretty proud that I'm on file somewhere as being a possible radical ) Just so sorry that it came to nothing. And very sorry that student protests have shrivelled up and died. We had tens of thousands of students marching, we brought central London to a standstill, coaches from all over the country.
The "grants not loans" protest was, I think, the last big student demo. This grieves me greatly. The sparks of student radicalism have gone and the big idea is "get your head down, do what you need to do to get a corporate job in the milk round so as you can afford to pay of your debt.
Where are the future academics? Where are the students of the idiosyncratic? where are the new generation of people who have the time and space to say ".....I wonder".
Answer? Going down the pan in search of the market driven, instant return, where's the money philistinism.
And the fluffy, we're all in this together Tories? Well, while thousands of us where protesting in the late 80's and early 90's, Cameron, Osbourne and that particularly irritating faux-idiot Boris Johnson can be seen here doing their bit for their fellow students. Ignore the bollocks spouted by the poster - we're lucky enough to see most of the pictures. Huge pressure was brought to bear on the copyright holder to prevent publication in the run-up to the last election. And still, it appears, people have been exorcised from the latter picture. Google is your friend.
Consider this another in the ongoing series of HJ rants. One that has covered a great deal of ground.
I promise that I will calm down. Just as soon as I get sailing again.
Location: its wet, windy and chilly....take a guess Gender: Zodiac: Chinese Yr:
Posted:
Nov 3, 2010 - 5:04pm
hobiejoe wrote:
Not to students. Do you know how much beer £9,000 a year will buy in the Union bar?
Too much. I have to say its not something I'd look forward to, and it will inevitably make Uni impossible for a large section of the population. OTOH perhaps we need more people with specific technical skills from apprenticeships and less people with degrees? Is the 3 year BSc/BA still the best option for almost 50% of people with A levels?
btw The Ram at Exeter now stocks 'proper' beer on tap - yellowhammer and otter at the moment. Very nice.
Location: The dreaming spires Gender: Zodiac: Chinese Yr:
Posted:
Nov 3, 2010 - 1:57pm
geordiezimmerman wrote:
More stitch up from the coalition. Please note, today Nick Clegg (man in video) just agreed to increase university tuition fees to up to £9000.00 a year. Now watch the video he made pre-election. What a twat.
That's a grown-up assessment of a responsible human being
hobiejoe
Oh Lord above, send down a dove; With wings as sharp as razors; To cut the throats of them mean blokes; That sells bad beer to sailors.
Location: Still in the tunnel, looking for the light. Gender: Zodiac: Chinese Yr:
Posted:
Nov 3, 2010 - 1:24pm
beamends wrote:
Why would they? In four or five years time something else will be the burning issue.
Not to students. Do you know how much beer £9,000 a year will buy in the Union bar?
I wouldn't mind so much, but I haven't really seen much in the way of compromise; the only things the Lib Dems seem to have achieved are things that the two parties lready agreed on before the election, such as ID cards.
But when it comes to conflicting views the LD's roll over every time - and in this case, every LD MP signed the pledge to oppose fees. If they're not going to stand up for such a clear and central position then what are they there for? And why on earth should we trust anything they say again? I'd imagine that a lot of those MP's in areas with large student populations are cacking themselves tonight.
Why would they? In four or five years time something else will be the burning issue.
hobiejoe
Oh Lord above, send down a dove; With wings as sharp as razors; To cut the throats of them mean blokes; That sells bad beer to sailors.
Location: Still in the tunnel, looking for the light. Gender: Zodiac: Chinese Yr:
Posted:
Nov 3, 2010 - 1:10pm
beamends wrote:
Coalition = Compromise.
Hard times = hard choices.
Being a full-time carer I'm right in the firing line for cuts, but getting out of the economic mess is far, far more important than squabbling over who said what, to whome, and when. Or would you prefer what has happened in the US where government is effectively going to be paralized for two years? At least, for better or worse, the ConDems are doing something. Now. While there are still choices.
I wouldn't mind so much, but I haven't really seen much in the way of compromise; the only things the Lib Dems seem to have achieved are things that the two parties lready agreed on before the election, such as ID cards.
But when it comes to conflicting views the LD's roll over every time - and in this case, every LD MP signed the pledge to oppose fees. If they're not going to stand up for such a clear and central position then what are they there for? And why on earth should we trust anything they say again? I'd imagine that a lot of those MP's in areas with large student populations are cacking themselves tonight.
More stitch up from the coalition. Please note, today Nick Clegg (man in video) just agreed to increase university tuition fees to up to £9000.00 a year. Now watch the video he made pre-election. What a twat.
Coalition = Compromise.
Hard times = hard choices.
Being a full-time carer I'm right in the firing line for cuts, but getting out of the economic mess is far, far more important than squabbling over who said what, to whome, and when. Or would you prefer what has happened in the US where government is effectively going to be paralized for two years? At least, for better or worse, the ConDems are doing something. Now. While there are still choices.
) Just so sorry that it came to nothing. And very sorry that student protests have shrivelled up and died. We had tens of thousands of students marching, we brought central London to a standstill, coaches from all over the country.
