RP Listener Forum - Radio Paradise

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 7:51pm

hippiechick wrote:

Do you think that animals have souls?

Gosh; I sure hope so. They deserve it.

Actually, I'm not unconvinced that we may not come back as other sentient beings in different go-rounds. It's a good thought, IMO.

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 7:49pm

Beanie wrote:

That's interesting. So to you, it goes beyond the concept that there is no "God" (the "the-" in "theism") to disclaim the very existence of any spirit or consciousness that transcends mortal life as we experience it?

I think you can believe that there is a spirit that both precedes and transcends this mortal coil, without believing there is a "being" who "controls" life. With that in mind, the afterlife is simply a different plane of existence, so someone who is brain dead here wouldn't necessarily experience the afterlife any differently than someone who isn't brain dead. From a neurological standpoint, brain death is simply a lack of functioning of the electrical signals that controls experience in this version of who we are. Once you shake off this life, your spirit continues to be what it was before you showed up in this package.

Anyway, that's how I think of it. Not 100% sure about how I feel about a supreme being, but I sure do think there's something on the other side of the curtain.

Do you think that animals have souls?

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 7:46pm

katzendogs wrote:

Me too and that's all I'll say on the matter. {#Hug}

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 7:42pm

Beanie wrote:

That's interesting. So to you, it goes beyond the concept that there is no "God" (the "the-" in "theism") to disclaim the very existence of any spirit or consciousness that transcends mortal life as we experience it?

I think you can believe that there is a spirit that both precedes and transcends this mortal coil, without believing there is a "being" who "controls" life. With that in mind, the afterlife is simply a different plane of existence, so someone who is brain dead here wouldn't necessarily experience the afterlife any differently than someone who isn't brain dead. From a neurological standpoint, brain death is simply a lack of functioning of the electrical signals that controls experience in this version of who we are. Once you shake off this life, your spirit continues to be what it was before you showed up in this package.

Anyway, that's how I think of it. Not 100% sure about how I feel about a supreme being, but I sure do think there's something on the other side of the curtain.

Me too and that's all I'll say on the matter. {#Hug}

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 7:38pm

p4jkafla wrote:

As an atheist, I have no belief system. It is my understanding that when our biological processes stop, we stop. There is no soul, or afterlife. I think it was Sam Harris who I first heard discuss this in terms of neurology. When people suffer a brain injury, they sometimes lose a critical part of who they were. They no longer think (as a process) the way they did before. If someone loses their memory during life, is that memory stored somewhere offsite so it can be restored into a soul? How would an afterlife look to someone that was braindead?

BTW, I'm perfectly good with that. It makes sense to me.

oh...and for me, I wouldn't consider someone who is spiritual in any way to be an atheist.

That's interesting. So to you, it goes beyond the concept that there is no "God" (the "the-" in "theism") to disclaim the very existence of any spirit or consciousness that transcends mortal life as we experience it?

I think you can believe that there is a spirit that both precedes and transcends this mortal coil, without believing there is a "being" who "controls" life. With that in mind, the afterlife is simply a different plane of existence, so someone who is brain dead here wouldn't necessarily experience the afterlife any differently than someone who isn't brain dead. From a neurological standpoint, brain death is simply a lack of functioning of the electrical signals that controls experience in this version of who we are. Once you shake off this life, your spirit continues to be what it was before you showed up in this package.

Anyway, that's how I think of it. Not 100% sure about how I feel about a supreme being, but I sure do think there's something on the other side of the curtain.

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 7:27pm

Skaterella wrote:

I am a believer and i've always wondered about the belief system of atheists (not in a judgemental way) as it relates to the concept of a soul and an afterlife. do many or most atheists believe in those things? and how do atheists feel about spirituality. I only know a few atheists in real life but they are people i think of as very spiritual and connected & I wonder what they would think of that??

As an atheist, I have no belief system. It is my understanding that when our biological processes stop, we stop. There is no soul, or afterlife. I think it was Sam Harris who I first heard discuss this in terms of neurology. When people suffer a brain injury, they sometimes lose a critical part of who they were. They no longer think (as a process) the way they did before. If someone loses their memory during life, is that memory stored somewhere offsite so it can be restored into a soul? How would an afterlife look to someone that was braindead?

BTW, I'm perfectly good with that. It makes sense to me.

oh...and for me, I wouldn't consider someone who is spiritual in any way to be an atheist.

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 7:20pm

Skaterella wrote:

I am a believer and i've always wondered about the belief system of atheists (not in a judgemental way) as it relates to the concept of a soul and an afterlife. do many or most atheists believe in those things? and how do atheists feel about spirituality. I only know a few atheists in real life but they are people i think of as very spiritual and connected & I wonder what they would think of that??

Michael Shermer wrote a book called "Why People Believe Weird Things" - Bill Maher is an atheist who believes in astrology; a lot of atheists believe in luck or reincarnation or karma. The basic definition of an atheist is one who does not ascribe the workings of the universe to a supernatural being; most people believe in some kind of personalized higher power - they are considered theists. Some people, like Spinoza, Einstein, and Thomas Jefferson considered themselves deists - they contemplated god as a set of universal laws which hold everything in the universe together, but did not consider said deity to be a personal being. Most theists believe in one particular flavor of a deity, rejecting all the others as invalid. I've just gone one further, and dispensed with the lot. I heard Chris Hitchens say once that "Agnostics are atheists who cannot commit." I don't quite agree; I think agnostics accept the lack of evidence but are very hopeful that some will crop up at some point - I think this is rather optimistic; and there's nothing wrong with that.

In terms of organized religion - I feel it has done little, if any good in this world; and can cite a ton of evidence to back up this particular opinion.

So, I guess it's a mixed bag - I, personally believe in a kind of active karma; my attitude and behavior are attractors to like attitudes and behaviors but, I don't consider spirituality valid for me. I value life itself; I see no evidence for anything beyond this existence and, if there is something, I'll meet it with energy and curiosity, like I do the existence I currently enjoy.

I hope this is helpful.

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 7:09pm

Skaterella wrote:

I am a believer and i've always wondered about the belief system of atheists (not in a judgemental way) as it relates to the concept of a soul and an afterlife. do many or most atheists believe in those things? and how do atheists feel about spirituality. I only know a few atheists in real life but they are people i think of as very spiritual and connected & I wonder what they would think of that??

Me too.
That's all I''ll say on the matter.

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 7:08pm

hippiechick wrote:

WRONG!

Don't put words in my mouth, Dude. I absolutely do not believe, have no reason to believe, have no proof whatsoever to give even the smallest consideration to believing.

Wow! Talk about shoving an idea on someone!

And it's not contempt. It's just that I don't believe in fairy tales. The end.

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 7:07pm

p4jkafla wrote:

Thats a lovely way to look at it. I like people who engage other people in the rites of civililty. I think its just being nice.

There are, however people who look to regulate other people's activites; especially when the don't fit community "standards". I've been the subject of that kind of attention and it isn't pleasant.

I guess motive comes into play here, but even well meaning folks can get it wrong.

Absolutely. And I don't want to downplay those who have been ostracized or made to feel like they don't belong. I think your personal journey is an example of someone who has had to overcome prejudice. Perhaps that is part of my problem. When we take offense at people who are just being friendly we trivialize in some way those who are actually being treated hatefully. The example that comes to mind (although it isn't exactly the right one but I'm not going to take the time to fish around up there and see if my brain is going to give me a better one) is depression. I sometimes suffer from the blues. It might even be a mild form of depression. But I don't like to say, "Oh, I am so depressed" because it seems like it puts what I am going through on the same playing field as someone who is battling a truly horrible monster. I just want to listen to Nina Simone and eat ice cream. It is not a life and death struggle for me.

I believe real prejudice exists. And I believe it exists within the Christian community. And it emanates from some sectors of the Christian community. It should never, ever be tolerated. And I am not excusing it. However, when I ask where you go to church, I am just being polite/curious/nosy. Like when I look at your car and ask you how it rides. Or what grade your kid is in. Or if you've tried the new BBQ place that just opened up. When people call that "persecution" (not that anyone here is doing that, I am just being dramatic because, you know, I am me) then it trivializes people who really have been persecuted. And unfortunately, there are far too many of those out there. Actually, one would be far too many, wouldn't it?

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 7:07pm

I do not have a personal story on this topic.

I do not know whether or not I believe. I truly believe that, for me, it is not a question that needs to be answered. So, I don't try to answer it. I'm usually amazed that folk throughout history have spent so much time discussing the question.  My thought always comes back to, if we could say right now, definitively, that God does or does not exist, what would change? For me, nothing.

I have thought about it. My belief is that I try to live my life adhering to values that I believe would hold me in good stead with God — if God does exist. So, the fact that I do not believe — if that were the case — should not matter in God's eyes.  I try to live by the principles. That, I think,, matters.

My early experience with church/religion only served to teach me that I did not believe in organized religions. What confused me was that we, as kids, were always told that we should be striving to develop a personal relationship with God. My thought process was, well, if that is the goal, why are we trying to do that in this group setting? Anyway, that wasn't for me.

Edit: Good discussion, by the way. Thanks to all.

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 7:05pm

Skaterella wrote:

I am a believer and i've always wondered about the belief system of atheists (not in a judgemental way) as it relates to the concept of a soul and an afterlife. do many or most atheists believe in those things? and how do atheists feel about spirituality. I only know a few atheists in real life but they are people i think of as very spiritual and connected & I wonder what they would think of that??

Speaking just for myself, I have no belief in an afterlife or a soul. When you're dead, your dead. Just like all other beings, we are born, we grow we die, we return to the earth.

I believe that all people are connected, we all came from the same place, we are all star dust. But I don't think that makes me spiritual. I don't believe in New Age woo woo.

God or religion is not necessary to feel connected.

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 6:58pm

I am a believer and i've always wondered about the belief system of atheists (not in a judgemental way) as it relates to the concept of a soul and an afterlife. do many or most atheists believe in those things? and how do atheists feel about spirituality. I only know a few atheists in real life but they are people i think of as very spiritual and connected & I wonder what they would think of that??

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 6:52pm

edieraye wrote:

I get so tired of this complaint. We talk to each other, it is what we do. It is not unusual at the grocery store to ask a stranger what they are planning on making with something in their cart. And not just in a polite way. We really want to know and will ask for recipe specifics. We ask about the books we see you read, we comment on songs playing over the loudspeakers. We ask about church but we also ask where your kids go to school, where you get your hair cut and if you have a mechanic you trust. We compliment your shoes and tell you to hang in their honey when your kids are being difficult. We take your carts back to the store from the parking lot for you and help little old ladies load their groceries in their trunks. We knock on the door if you leave your garage door open. Yes, "Have you found a church?" is a common question when we find out someone has just moved to the area, along with info on the best place to get hamburgers and which neighbor you want to cut off after their second drink because they are a mean drunk. I have never heard of anyone being ostracized for not going to church. We are just being polite. Or nosy. Honestly, I think what this world needs is a little more community and less "keeping to yourself". And I am an extreme introvert who would live her entire life on-line if allowed. But fortunately, I'm not. And I am better for it.

We do exactly the same thing in the north. You would be amazed at what a friendly place Chicago is.

But just like everyone talks to each other, everyone talks about each other as well.

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 6:48pm

edieraye wrote:

I get so tired of this complaint. We talk to each other, it is what we do. It is not unusual at the grocery store to ask a stranger what they are planning on making with something in their cart. And not just in a polite way. We really want to know and will ask for recipe specifics. We ask about the books we see you read, we comment on songs playing over the loudspeakers. We ask about church but we also ask where your kids go to school, where you get your hair cut and if you have a mechanic you trust. We compliment your shoes and tell you to hang in their honey when your kids are being difficult. We take your carts back to the store from the parking lot for you and help little old ladies load their groceries in their trunks. We knock on the door if you leave your garage door open. Yes, "Have you found a church?" is a common question when we find out someone has just moved to the area, along with info on the best place to get hamburgers and which neighbor you want to cut off after their second drink because they are a mean drunk. I have never heard of anyone being ostracized for not going to church. We are just being polite. Or nosy. Honestly, I think what this world needs is a little more community and less "keeping to yourself". And I am an extreme introvert who would live her entire life on-line if allowed. But fortunately, I'm not. And I am better for it.

Thats a lovely way to look at it. I like people who engage other people in the rites of civililty. I think its just being nice.

There are, however people who look to regulate other people's activites; especially when the don't fit community "standards". I've been the subject of that kind of attention and it isn't pleasant.

I guess motive comes into play here, but even well meaning folks can get it wrong.

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 6:35pm

kurtster wrote:

Which is exactly my point about living in the Southern Bible Belt. This is not a unique to atheist experience is my only point. Some places do not allow you to keep to yourself. And life can become very difficult, very quickly in certain small communities and not in just the South, it was just the best example I had.

I live among Christians, many of them evangelicals. I've taught their kids science. I haven't spent much time in the deep south, so maybe those folks are more in-your-face, but very few have tried to proselytize to me and our interactions have been respectful.

It could be that I benefit from an assumption that I'm just like them, since there I am among fellow homeschoolers and all, but they can't all be that thick (after all, they've met my kids). Part of it comes from knowing yourself, and having the confidence to be yourself without needing to make everybody around you be just like you. Or maybe I'm just too thick to pick up on hostility, but I've just never had a problem.

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 6:33pm

kurtster wrote:

Which is exactly my point about living in the Southern Bible Belt. This is not a unique to atheist experience is my only point. Some places do not allow you to keep to yourself.

I get so tired of this complaint. We talk to each other, it is what we do. It is not unusual at the grocery store to ask a stranger what they are planning on making with something in their cart. And not just in a polite way. We really want to know and will ask for recipe specifics. We ask about the books we see you read, we comment on songs playing over the loudspeakers. We ask about church but we also ask where your kids go to school, where you get your hair cut and if you have a mechanic you trust. We compliment your shoes and tell you to hang in their honey when your kids are being difficult. We take your carts back to the store from the parking lot for you and help little old ladies load their groceries in their trunks. We knock on the door if you leave your garage door open. Yes, "Have you found a church?" is a common question when we find out someone has just moved to the area, along with info on the best place to get hamburgers and which neighbor you want to cut off after their second drink because they are a mean drunk. I have never heard of anyone being ostracized for not going to church. We are just being polite. Or nosy. Honestly, I think what this world needs is a little more community and less "keeping to yourself". And I am an extreme introvert who would live her entire life on-line if allowed. But fortunately, I'm not. And I am better for it.

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 6:24pm

MusicIsMotion wrote:

Therein lies the source of your contempt, self-admitted. I don't think you disbelieve, HC. I think you believe in God, and you hate Him.

WRONG!

Don't put words in my mouth, Dude. I absolutely do not believe, have no reason to believe, have no proof whatsoever to give even the smallest consideration to believing.

Wow! Talk about shoving an idea on someone!

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 6:20pm

Lazy8 wrote:

There are people in those pews who are being perfectly honest when they say they believe, and I wasn't talking about them. I don't have that experience so I don't know what it's like from the inside. I was referring to people like I used to be, afraid to call the emperor on his wardrobe but squirming at the lie they have to tell over and over to be accepted by their communities.

Which is exactly my point about living in the Southern Bible Belt. This is not a unique to atheist experience is my only point. Some places do not allow you to keep to yourself. And life can become very difficult, very quickly in certain small communities and not in just the South, it was just the best example I had.

Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 6:16pm

Lazy8 wrote:

There are people in those pews who are being perfectly honest when they say they believe, and I wasn't talking about them. I don't have that experience so I don't know what it's like from the inside. I was referring to people like I used to be, afraid to call the emperor on his wardrobe but squirming at the lie they have to tell over and over to be accepted by their communities.

ahhh...ok././.makes sense.

yea...you're probably right...