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ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Oct 14, 2005 - 8:52am

zevon wrote:
One more thought on the play that cost the Angels Weds:

Maybe a simple rule change is in order, where a ball in the dirt is not the criteria for keeping a batter alive on a third strike, but rather control by the catcher is.
In Weds' instance, there is no doubt that Paul had control of the ball, whether he caught it cleanly or trapped it is irrelevant.
The ball did not go past him , either as a passed ball or wild pitch. There is a catcher's box, make the rule that if the ball goes out of the box or that if the catcher isn't in control of the ball (i.e., can't find it), it's a live play. At that point, it doesn't matter if the ball hits the ground 2 feet in front of the plate, if the batter swings and the catcher fields it in the box, yer out, siddown, grab some pine.
Seriously, anybody who swings at a ball in the dirt doesn't really deserve a shot at getting to first anyway, do they??


Really, it's an arcane quirk of a rule that wouldn't be missed if they did away with it altogether. I believe it was Kerry Wood who I watched get 4 "strikeouts" in one inning. That's just odd.
zevon

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Posted: Oct 14, 2005 - 7:22am

One more thought on the play that cost the Angels Weds:

Maybe a simple rule change is in order, where a ball in the dirt is not the criteria for keeping a batter alive on a third strike, but rather control by the catcher is.
In Weds' instance, there is no doubt that Paul had control of the ball, whether he caught it cleanly or trapped it is irrelevant.
The ball did not go past him , either as a passed ball or wild pitch. There is a catcher's box, make the rule that if the ball goes out of the box or that if the catcher isn't in control of the ball (i.e., can't find it), it's a live play. At that point, it doesn't matter if the ball hits the ground 2 feet in front of the plate, if the batter swings and the catcher fields it in the box, yer out, siddown, grab some pine.
Seriously, anybody who swings at a ball in the dirt doesn't really deserve a shot at getting to first anyway, do they??
zevon

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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 9:23pm

Drachenadler wrote:


Here's a few, if Hippie will uncurl his clutching fingers from them:


So how's things with the Hipster Drach?
Working hard???
zevon

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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 9:22pm

Curry wrote:


Indeed I second that one. Pass me a beer willya already?


By the way, Welcome Curry!
Always nice to see another sports geek (my self-description) around.
Curry

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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 8:54pm

Drachenadler wrote:
There usually isn't. I love that they leave it all on the ice, especially in the playoffs. The NHL playoffs are THE sport to watch as nothing compares to the player intensity, not even the SuperBowl. When an official can determine the outcome of a game due to a wrong or bad call, something has to change. In the NHL, Rome lives!!!!


Indeed I second that one. Pass me a beer willya already?
Curry

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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 8:47pm

Drachenadler wrote:
A grand idea! Let's boot the refs out of the NFL while we're at it, and bring robots into the NBA. That would be an improvement.

The only officials who allow the frikkin' players to play are those in the NHL, especially in the play-offs. They have a better understanding of their sport than their ticky-tak wussy-footed counterparts. Unless someone's head is in the net, they don't call it. As it should be. No blood, no call.


Someone (Zevon?) wrote below about how hard it is to watch NBA and I agree, it's interminable. The refs call anything unless it's on a superstar (O'Neal, e.g.), who can get away with murder. Terrible inconsistency.

But hockey? You can't be serious to let them keep going, can you? There won't be anyone left standing!

zevon

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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 8:32pm

Curry wrote:


Please, no high-tech sensors in the game. Might as well take the umpires out of it completely.

It's a game and it's not perfect; it's not the game's fault that millions (of $) are literally riding on the swings of the bat.

Peer review is much better. The umps who get it right stay in the game. The umps who don't have a clear strike zone (and the players know who they are) are out.


I'm not for teching out sports totally, but these umps are the cream of the crop, simply the best available. There's not an endless supply waiting in line that can do the job as well or better.
Simply put, the cream of the crop ain't good enough, so what can be done to help them?
The millions aren't only for the players/owners/clubs either - there are fortunes wagered on games by the general public, both through legit casinos and websites and through bookies.
Wonder how much was lost by Angel backers last night?
I'm betting it's 9 figures.
Curry

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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 8:25pm

zevon wrote:
There are many relatively simple (these days) technological things that could be done to ensure correct calls other than instant replay.
For instance, is a pitched ball over the plate or not?
...


Please, no high-tech sensors in the game. Might as well take the umpires out of it completely.

It's a game and it's not perfect; it's not the game's fault that millions (of $) are literally riding on the swings of the bat.

Peer review is much better. The umps who get it right stay in the game. The umps who don't have a clear strike zone (and the players know who they are) are out.

zevon

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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 7:56pm

Drachenadler wrote:


No, IR doesn't ensure they'll get it right, but it gives them an added chance to do so. IR has its own limitations i.e. camera angles, obstructions, technical inadequacies, lighting, bad framing, etc. And yes, the human element does not guarantee what actually happened on the field is what will be adjudicated in the form of correct calls. But it does provide another impartial layer of the possibility of getting it right.

We've all seen clearly irrefutable evidence to overturn or confirm a call on the field and have it misinterpreted or called incorrectly anyway. But all in all, I'd rather have it than not. NFL & NHL both use it.

NBA? Well, that's an entire mess all its own and the officiating is the main reason I NEVER watch a regular season game and won't even stop on the channel until late May and June. Then at least the higher caliber of the playoff game rids us of having to watch perennially lousy teams like Golden State, Denver, and a bunch of others. The refs in that sport are 99% dreadful and the personal bias is nowhere more evident than in that overly popular sport. That coupled with the archaic and silly free throw, the endless fouls in the last two minutes, the phantom calls and the whistled disruption of the rhythm of the game make it, for me, completely unwatchable.

But please, ask me what I really think.


There are many relatively simple (these days) technological things that could be done to ensure correct calls other than instant replay.
For instance, is a pitched ball over the plate or not?
I see so many pitches that are 3+ inches outside or in called strikes it's pathetic - ESPN's K Zone illustrates this wonderfully, although they seem to attempt to not embarass umps with it - prolly a condition of the MLB TV contract. The usual scenario is that the catcher sets up 6 inches outside, and if the pitcher hits his glove or the catcher frames it well, the ump often calls a strike.
One simple solution is to put some sort of material in the windings of the ball which would activate sensors installed at the front of home plate - ball crosses over the plate, light goes on (or something), ball doesn't cross, no light, = no strike. It would be tough to sensorize the pitch height due to different batter heights - too much tweaking between batters - but at least the ump could focus solely on the height of the pitch and take a hell of a lot of guesswork out. OK , pitch is at batter's knees, height good, got a light, STEEE-RIKE!! Bottom line is, if it ain't over the plate, it ain't a strike!
Another personal bitch of mine is the check swing, home plate ump doesn't know if the batter "went around", catcher appeals to first or third base ump, they make the call. These umps are roughly 90 feet away from home plate and are not at a good side angle, but rather facing the batter. I believe about half of these calls are friggin' guesswork. Make the rule that if the bat touches or crosses the front edge of the plate, it's a strike. Again, sensors. Get it right for chrissakes, no replay necessary, no arguments taken. Take this as far as you want - sensor the foul lines, the yellow lines at the top of the wall-another thing that drives me batshit - make it over the wall for a Home Run, not hitting the yellow line at the top - what moron came up with that?
None of these enhancements would have done diddly for last night's dry screwing of the Angels, but all would make for accurate calls in important areas. I still think the Halos have a legit protest, but God knows how that whole process works...

Oh, and football? Who doesn't love the short yardage pileup at the goal line with the running back or QB trying to smash the ball over the goal line? With about a dozen 350 pound behemoths all trying to either push their guy over the goal line or push the opponent back, I don't know how the hell the ref's can see the player, never mind the damn ball, to judge whether or not the runner "breaks the plane".
Sensors.
Throw 'em on the sidelines too, get those pesky out of bounds calls right.
Some of this is way to techy for purists, but the bottom line is, replay doesn't always get things right-remember Testaverde getting stopped a good yard short last year, awarded a TD?
Changes such as these would not eliminate all shitty calls, but it would take the too damn close to tell factor out of balls and strikes, first downs (lousy spots suck!), TD's, etc, and would allow the ref's to be more cognizant of other important things happening on the field.
Like balls in the dirt...

And Drach, I gotta fully agree, the NBA has become to dull to watch.
Seems the only part worth seeing for the last few years is the last half hour, or in clock terms, the last 2 minutes. I can't sit through it either.

Lewis Black out...
ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints.
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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 1:43pm

pdhski wrote:
runner hit by batted ball with bases loded = out but batter credited with hit?


*bing*
*bing*
*bing*
*bing*
*bing*
We have a winnah! Tell 'im what he wins, Jay!

"An autographed picture of Randy Mantooth!"

Yay!
pdhski
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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 1:29pm

runner hit by batted ball with bases loded = out but batter credited with hit?
Beanie
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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 12:49pm

ScottFromWyoming wrote:


FC is not a hit.


Well then....fine.

I'll bet it was a silly prize, anyway.
ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 12:48pm

Drachenadler wrote:

But thanks for the article, I'll read it shortly.


So in the NFL, you always agree with the refs when they come back from reviewing the instant replay? About 75% of the time the video replays are not that clear to me.
ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 12:45pm

Beanie wrote:


Sorry...I put in the scenario beloW:

Three singles to load the bases and then three fielder-choice plays at home plate? Or don't those get scored as "hits"?


FC is not a hit.
pdhski
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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 12:44pm

ScottFromWyoming wrote:

Very good! You got the first 5. There's one more possible hit...


hmmm
Beanie
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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 12:38pm

ScottFromWyoming wrote:


I can see that I needed to stipulate that you have to describe a scenario for these hits. Six is right but it would be a bigger fluke than last night's debacle.

And for our purposes here, "hit" means official scorer calls it a "hit," not just "batted the ball somewhere."


Sorry...I put in the scenario beloW:

Three singles to load the bases and then three fielder-choice plays at home plate? Or don't those get scored as "hits"?
ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 12:37pm

pdhski wrote:


5 - if first two are picked off. then 3 more to load bases. Next hit scores a run. Infield ball and thrown out at home would be ruled fielder's choice - not a hit. Yes?

Very good! You got the first 5. There's one more possible hit...
pdhski
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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 12:35pm

ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Rule-book trivia:

What's the most hits a team can get in an inning without scoring?


5 - if first two are picked off. then 3 more to load bases. Next hit scores a run. Infield ball and thrown out at home would be ruled fielder's choice - not a hit. Yes?
ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 12:34pm

Beanie wrote:


Six?

I'm sure I'm wrong.

What do I win if I'm right, though?


I can see that I needed to stipulate that you have to describe a scenario for these hits. Six is right but it would be a bigger fluke than last night's debacle.

And for our purposes here, "hit" means official scorer calls it a "hit," not just "batted the ball somewhere."
ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Oct 13, 2005 - 12:30pm

Drachenadler wrote:
Terrible call, reversed by the ump himself, and yet another reason MLB has got to come into the 21st Century, kicking and screaming, if need be, and institute instant replay.

Bad calls should not be allowed to change the outcome, or potential outcome, of a game, especially a playoff game after these teams have already endured a far too long and sluggardly season to get there.

He was out. Everyone knows it. Everyone except those nincumpoops who are paid far too much to make the right calls, that is.


King Kaufman's Sports Daily

White Sox beat Angels on ump's screwup. And catcher's. And pitcher's. Does baseball need replay? No!

Oct. 13, 2005 | Let's get this out of the way first: Baseball doesn't need instant replay.

The way Game 2 of the American League Championship Series ended Wednesday night is the kind of thing that leads, in other, lesser sports, to demands for video review. I haven't heard a lot of talk about it so far, but one online poll shows a slim majority in favor of replay review. These people are wrong.

Instant replay would have solved nothing Wednesday night, and it would pollute and bog down a perfectly fine game if it were adopted in response.

What happened Wednesday was that the Chicago White Sox beat the Los Angeles Angels 2-1 on a big screwup by someone. Also on a complete game, one-run, five hitter by lefty Mark Buehrle that will be little noted nor long remembered. The ALCS is tied 1-1.

Depending on your point of view, the blame can be divided however you'd like between home-plate umpire Doug Eddings and Angels catcher Josh Paul. Eddings and Paul both helpfully denied that they'd done anything wrong. I think both of them can shoulder some blame.

I'm also with Angels manager Mike Scioscia, who was angry over the ninth-inning call but said his team didn't do enough to win anyway.

In the other game Wednesday night, the St. Louis Cardinals beat the Houston Astros in Game 1 of the National League Championship Series by jumping on Houston starter Andy Pettitte and then hanging on to win 5-3. Game 2 of that series is Thursday night in St. Louis. The Angels and White Sox are off.

The White Sox were batting with two outs and the bases empty in the bottom of the ninth Wednesday with the score tied 1-1 when A.J. Pierzynski swung and missed a Kelvim Escobar splitter for strike three. The ball dived down out of the strike zone and Paul caught it just before, or just after -- a key question -- it hit the dirt.

Eddings, the umpire, signaled by jabbing his right arm out to the side and then clenching his fist in front of him. What these two moves signaled is a source of dispute.

Pierzynski, after following through his swing, instinctively juked to avoid a tag by Paul. If the ball had hit the dirt before Paul caught it, he would have been required to tag Pierzynski or throw to first to record the out.

On any third strike that's low, the catcher routinely tags the batter, whether the ball hit the dirt or not, just to make sure. The home-plate umpire, looking over the catcher's shoulder, has a tough angle to see whether the ball caught the ground, so the standard move is to tag and remove all doubt.

The batter often makes a perfunctory move to avoid the tag, which is what it looked like Pierzynski was doing. Everyone is saying he started walking back toward the dugout, but that's not what happened. He juked, then, upon realizing Paul wasn't trying to tag him, he took off toward first.

Paul had started to trot toward the Angels' dugout, as had his teammates in the field. Paul rolled the ball to the mound just as Pierzynski took off for first. Eddings, his mask still on, watched the whole play and made no further signal, though he took his mask off as he watched Pierzynski run up the line.

Pierzynski reached safely as the Angels stood around dumbfounded. An argument ensued, of course, with the umpiring crew huddling and finally deciding that the ball had hit the ground and Pierzynski was entitled to first base.

This all would have been forgotten had Escobar retired the next hitter, Joe Crede, but you knew that wouldn't happen. After pinch-runner Pablo Ozuna stole second, Crede lined a game-winning double off the left-field fence.

So who screwed up? Eddings, by blowing the original call? Paul, by not tagging the runner whether he thought he caught the ball cleanly or not? Eddings again, by not making a clear signal?

We'll talk about those two, but let's not forget Escobar for grooving an 0-2 pitch to Crede for the game-winner.

Replays were pretty inconclusive about whether the third strike to Pierzynski bounced, which by the way is one of many reasons instant replay would be a terrible thing.

The others, which we've learned from the NFL: It would slow down the game, turn a human endeavor into a technocratic one, and change the way the umpires actually call the game, turning them into timid functionaries who tailor their calls to make sure they remain reviewable.

It looked to me like Paul caught the ball cleanly, especially on the view from a camera on the first-base side. But I can be talked into seeing a bounce.

An unscientific poll by the Chicago Tribune, the White Sox's hometown paper, had readers saying the umpires blew the call by nearly a 3-2 margin as of mid-morning Thursday. A poll at ESPN.com, also unscientific, had 77 percent saying Paul caught the ball cleanly.

I also think Paul heading straight for the dugout speaks volumes. There's no reason for the catcher to try to spoof the ump, fake him out, in that situation. If the ball hit the dirt, it's the easiest play in the world to tag him or toss the ball to first. There's no need for deception.

Still, Paul, despite his postgame comment -- "It's not my fault. I take no responsibility for that whatsoever" -- absolutely screwed up by not tagging Pierzynski as a matter of course. If your mitt touches the ground, tag the batter. High school stuff.

Paul's in his 10th professional season. He may not think what happened Wednesday was his fault, but you can bet money he'll never fail to tag a batter on a low third strike again.

But I think the big screwup was Eddings' unclear call. He defended himself after the game by saying the jab to the right meant "swing and a miss," the clenched fist meant "strike three," but not necessarily "you're out." Using an umpiring term, he said, "That's my strike three mechanic, when it's a swinging strike. If you watch, that's what I do the whole entire game."

The clenched fist meaning "strike three" but not "out" is evidently news to everyone who's ever played the game. Current and former players have been unanimous in saying that to them, the clenched fist is the signal for an out.

Asked if it's ever been an issue that most people interpret his strike signal as an out signal, Eddings said, "No, it's never been an issue until now."

Well, it's an issue now and it needs to be fixed. And not with instant replay! The same unscientific poll at ESPN.com asked if readers favored using instant replay for on-field calls, as distinct from ball-strike calls, and a slim majority, 51.5 percent to 48.5, said yes. They overwhelmingly said no on balls and strikes.

What needs to happen is that baseball has to mandate clear hand signals that everyone understands. Umpires all have their individual styles of calling strikes and outs, and that's fine to a point, but there has to be clarity about what means what because almost all of an umpire's signals happen during action and can affect the outcome of the play.

Paul and others have said umpires usually say, "No catch, no catch" when a ball hits the dirt on strike three. Umpiring supervisor Rich Reiker said that the play continued because Eddings hadn't said, "Batter's out." This shouting business is fine as a supplement, a courtesy, but it can't stand alone.

Umpires can't rely on verbal signals. In a loud stadium, how are the first baseman and the pitcher, who could have teamed up to throw Pierzynski out Wednesday had they realized what Eddings was ruling, supposed to hear the umpire say, "No catch"? There has to be a hand signal for everything, and they have to be uniform, or at least universally recognizable.

Eddings shouldn't be singled out as a goat here. He may or may not have blown a tough call, which is just the way the ball bounces. And he's not alone in having a set of signals whose meanings are not always clear.

But the coming offseason would be a good time to fix this problem, before another team is forced to admit after a big win, as Chicago's Paul Konerko did, that "There's no question it was a screwed-up thing."

"You kind of feel like you got away with one," Konerko said. "I don't know what to say other than we'll take it as kind of a freebie."

Fair enough. But that's enough.

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