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aflanigan
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Posted: Oct 18, 2013 - 12:56pm

Details Emerge on Sandy Hook Shooting, Items Found in Lanza Rooms
RichardPrins

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Posted: Sep 25, 2013 - 2:36pm

Kerry signs U.N. Arms Trade Treaty, says won't harm U.S. rights
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - The United States signed a U.N. Arms Trade Treaty regulating the $70 billion global trade in conventional arms on Wednesday and the Obama administration sought to allay the fears of the powerful U.S. gun lobby which says the pact will violate the constitutional rights of Americans.

The treaty, which relates only to cross-border trade and aims to keep weapons out of the hands of human rights abusers and criminals, still requires ratification by the U.S. Senate and has been attacked by the influential gun rights group the National Rifle Association (NRA).

Among the NRA arguments against the treaty are that it undermines American sovereignty and that it disregards the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees citizens the right to bear arms.

The United States, the world's No. 1 arms exporter, became the 91st country to sign when U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry put pen to paper on the sidelines of the annual gathering of world leaders at the United Nations.

"It's significant that the United States, which amounts for about 80 percent of the world's export in arms, has signed," Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop told a news conference. (...)
O Canada?
sirdroseph
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Posted: Sep 23, 2013 - 4:06am

 RichardPrins wrote:
I think that's the gist, however there are always practical problems, for instance when you say no country or entity should be arming (...). Arming another sovereign nation usually just involves commerce (or in some other cases ideological sponsorship/subsidy). And despite grandiose claims to the contrary, very little ethics appears to be involved.

Disarming is an even more complex issue (which of course also includes WMDs).


 

True, I also think it is incredibly hypocritical for the US or any other nation to try to disarm WMDs in the manner they are attempting without including Israel and any other country friend or foe that houses chemical and biological weapons.  And regarding nuclear, it does not take a brain surgeon to figure out that the only thing standing between US invasion in countries that have conflicts with the US is nuclear capability, past has proven that.  If I were Iran, I would be working overtime to become a nuclear nation which is what they are doing to be sure.
RichardPrins

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Posted: Sep 23, 2013 - 3:13am

 sirdroseph wrote:
Should the US intervene in the Syrian or any other Civil War? A simple no will suffice. I am consistent in my position. No country or entity should be arming or disarming another sovereign nation and certainly not its citizens. I think to hold that position and to be against military intervention by the US is quite hypocritical. 

I think that's the gist, however there are always practical problems, for instance when you say no country or entity should be arming (...). Arming another sovereign nation usually just involves commerce (or in some other cases ideological sponsorship/subsidy). And despite grandiose claims to the contrary, very little ethics appears to be involved.

Disarming is an even more complex issue (which of course also includes WMDs).
RichardPrins

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Posted: Sep 23, 2013 - 3:05am

 kurtster wrote:
 RichardPrins wrote:
I don't see any links to those exact statistics (or for that matter to your particular claim on ratios), so I don't know whether they are true or not.

Neither

.
From the article you posted ...

One more figure. There have been fewer than 20 terror-related deaths on American soil since 9/11 and about 364,000 deaths caused by privately owned firearms. If any European nation had such a record and persisted in addressing only the first figure, while ignoring the second, you can bet your last pound that the State Department would be warning against travel to that country and no American would set foot in it without body armour.


Going to the link in the paragraph above from the article led me to this ...

As with the Boston killings, each of these murders robbed a person of his or her life and left a family devastated. But compared to other types of violent deaths, the numbers are small. In 2010, to take a year at random, there were 11,078 firearm homicides in the United States, and 19,392 firearm suicides. In the same year, there were 544 homicides by suffocation and 89 by fire, plus 79 intentional poisonings and 52 intentional drownings. Statistically speaking, people in American had a higher chance of being killed by malaria than by terrorists. (These figures come from the Centers for Disease Control.)


That is the basis for my ratio of 2:1 and the rest of my calculations.  I used your article and followed the links provided within the article for the article's conclusions of saying that the number of deaths in the US over the period in question warranted the conclusion of saying the number of gun deaths warranted a comparison to the number of deaths in a civil war of some sort and a travel warning as seen above.

Just using the facts you provided.

I'm done for the night.  Later ...

 
That talks about 2010, not the period of '68-Now, which were the statistics in question.

And no, I don't follow every link that's in an article, especially when it appears as not directly relevant (to the overall statistics). Your link in question (above) leads to the stats of terrorism (and compared to the insane amount of resources spent) which is a familiar (risk) argument that has been used by skeptics of GWOT since 2001.
sirdroseph
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Posted: Sep 23, 2013 - 2:18am

 RichardPrins wrote:
American gun use is out of control. Shouldn't the world intervene?
The death toll from firearms in the US suggests that the country is gripped by civil war
{#Mrgreen}

 
Should the US intervene in the Syrian or any other Civil War? A simple no will suffice. I am consistent in my position. No country or entity should be arming or disarming another sovereign nation and certainly not its citizens. I think to hold that position and to be against military intervention by the US is quite hypocritical.


kurtster
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Posted: Sep 22, 2013 - 11:41pm

 RichardPrins wrote:
I don't see any links to those exact statistics (or for that matter to your particular claim on ratios), so I don't know whether they are true or not.

Neither

.
From the article you posted ...

One more figure. There have been fewer than 20 terror-related deaths on American soil since 9/11 and about 364,000 deaths caused by privately owned firearms. If any European nation had such a record and persisted in addressing only the first figure, while ignoring the second, you can bet your last pound that the State Department would be warning against travel to that country and no American would set foot in it without body armour.


Going to the link in the paragraph above from the article led me to this ...

As with the Boston killings, each of these murders robbed a person of his or her life and left a family devastated. But compared to other types of violent deaths, the numbers are small. In 2010, to take a year at random, there were 11,078 firearm homicides in the United States, and 19,392 firearm suicides. In the same year, there were 544 homicides by suffocation and 89 by fire, plus 79 intentional poisonings and 52 intentional drownings. Statistically speaking, people in American had a higher chance of being killed by malaria than by terrorists. (These figures come from the Centers for Disease Control.)


That is the basis for my ratio of 2:1 and the rest of my calculations.  I used your article and followed the links provided within the article for the article's conclusions of saying that the number of deaths in the US over the period in question warranted the conclusion of saying the number of gun deaths warranted a comparison to the number of deaths in a civil war of some sort and a travel warning as seen above.

Just using the facts you provided.

I'm done for the night.  Later ...
RichardPrins

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Posted: Sep 22, 2013 - 8:36pm

 kurtster wrote:
So answer my question regarding my analysis of the stats in the article you posted.
 
Are you trying to turn a sentiment with deliberate dishonesty or did you fail to read your own reference source all the way through ? 

I don't see any links to those exact statistics (or for that matter to your particular claim on ratios), so I don't know whether they are true or not.

Neither.
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Posted: Sep 22, 2013 - 8:23pm

 RichardPrins wrote:
My (unanswered) question was obviously about your false assertion of my position. The rest is the usual UN paranoia, which has been amply addressed in the past.


On the bolded we clearly disagree and your (reference) article is the type of language used within the SAT.  The SAT if the US ratified it would allow the UN to come in immediately and put Chicago under UN imposed matial law.  Read it.  Its very explicit.

I edited my reply and did answer your question while you were composing the above.

So answer my question regarding my analysis of the stats in the article you posted.
 
Are you trying to turn a sentiment with deliberate dishonesty or did you fail to read your own reference source all the way through ?


RichardPrins

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Posted: Sep 22, 2013 - 8:08pm

 kurtster wrote:
About your position, my intepretation of the UN's or both ? 

My (unanswered) question was obviously about your false assertion of my position. The rest is the usual UN paranoia, which has been amply addressed in the past.
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Posted: Sep 22, 2013 - 8:00pm

 RichardPrins wrote:

Yes.

 

I was concluding based upon the articles you have posted over the years.  Its as simple as that.  Its hard to tell where you personally stand on many things.
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Posted: Sep 22, 2013 - 7:50pm

 kurtster wrote:
Am I wrong ?
 
Yes.
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Posted: Sep 22, 2013 - 7:45pm

 RichardPrins wrote:

What lead you to believe that I would actually advocate such a thing?

 
Am I wrong ?
RichardPrins

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Posted: Sep 22, 2013 - 7:33pm

 kurtster wrote:
(...) It may wake a few people up to what you and the UN are advocating for us Americans in order to take away our guns. (...)
 
What lead you to believe that I would actually advocate such a thing?
kurtster
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Posted: Sep 22, 2013 - 7:18pm

 RichardPrins wrote:
American gun use is out of control. Shouldn't the world intervene?
The death toll from firearms in the US suggests that the country is gripped by civil war
{#Mrgreen}

 
Yep bash away.  Its OK.

The article you cite is making the case for UN intervention as mentioned in the highly debated Small Arms Treaty.  I have read the entire treaty.  Those that say we have nothing to fear regarding the SAT should read his link and then read the treaty.  It may wake a few people up to what you and the UN are advocating for us Americans in order to take away our guns.

Your article cites some pretty amazing facts when left unexamined.

To absorb the scale of the mayhem, it's worth trying to guess the death toll of all the wars in American history since the War of Independence began in 1775, and follow that by estimating the number killed by firearms in the US since the day that Robert F. Kennedy was shot in 1968 by a .22 Iver-Johnson handgun, wielded by Sirhan Sirhan. The figures from Congressional Research Service, plus recent statistics from icasualties.org, tell us that from the first casualties in the battle of Lexington to recent operations in Afghanistan, the toll is 1,171,177. By contrast, the number killed by firearms, including suicides, since 1968, according to the Centres for Disease Control and Prevention and the FBI, is 1,384,171.


Note the bolded, including suicides.  I went deeper into the article to discover what the admitted ratio of suicide to homicide is. Its well over a 2:1 ratio.  So back that number minus the suicides down to 480k, or about 11k per year.  More people die from cars than firearm homicides on a 2:1 ratio.  While everylife is precious, 11k out of 300 million is extremely small.

You're being extremely dishonest in citing an article that includes a highly inflating number of suicide deaths to make the case for an outbreak of violence that resembles a civil war for crissakes.  If you want to have an honest discussion, use meaningful and honest numbers.

Are you trying to turn a sentiment with deliberate dishonesty or did you fail to read your own source all the way through ?

Just like the Navy Yard shootings, the first reports were an assault weapon, since we have learned it was a shotgun.  A shot gun that our VP Biden said everyone should have and please shoot through your front door first without looking to see who was on the other side.


RichardPrins

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Posted: Sep 22, 2013 - 6:29pm

American gun use is out of control. Shouldn't the world intervene?
The death toll from firearms in the US suggests that the country is gripped by civil war
{#Mrgreen}
kurtster
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Posted: Sep 19, 2013 - 1:43pm

 aflanigan wrote: 
and ?
meower

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Posted: Sep 19, 2013 - 10:03am

 aflanigan wrote: 

thank you.
aflanigan
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Posted: Sep 19, 2013 - 9:29am

This Other Town
hippiechick
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Posted: Apr 11, 2013 - 6:31am

New Research Confirms Gun Rampages Are Rising—and Armed Civilians Don't Stop Them


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