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Annoying stuff. not things that piss you off, just annoyi... - bokey - Jul 23, 2016 - 8:03am
 
Those Lovable Policemen - haresfur - Jul 22, 2016 - 9:02pm
 
Summer vacation plans? - Antigone - Jul 22, 2016 - 2:11pm
 
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haresfur
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Posted: Jul 22, 2016 - 9:02pm

Reading a brief statement from the officer who shot Kinsey, Rivera said, "I took this job to save lives and help people. I did what I had to do in a split second to accomplish that, and I hate to hear others paint me as something I am not."

This quote gets to the heart of the matter, I think. The police are trained to make split-second decisions but are not trained or poorly trained on when not to make split second decisions. This bias for action makes it much more likely to make a bad decision and more likely that their unconscious or conscious bias creates a bad result.

Well, that and from the video, there is no way this instance was really a split second decision.  
NoEnzLefttoSplit
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Posted: Jul 14, 2016 - 1:45am

 kurtster wrote:

Great thoughts over all.  On the bolded ... once upon a time we used to call them peace officers ... can we ever get back to that ?

rhetorical thought .. too many laws stripping the police of discretion which leads to an automatic escalation of a problem at hand ...

 
I can't say anything about the situation in the US. I only have my experience in NZ and here in Germany to go on.

On principle I agree with the libertarians here, the police do NOT have any natural right to exercise authority over anybody. For this reason policing in the sense of coercion should, in my view, be kept to an absolute minimum and only to protect basic rights agreed on by the wider community. However, I have no problems with policing in the sense of community officer, in a consensual sense. People squabble, fight, do bad things to each other. It can be pretty useful to have someone like a community officer around. But for that to work they have to be recognised and listened to. And that means integrated in the community. NZ gets this right in many instances despite great ethnic diversity. Germany is by no means as ethnically diverse (though it is getting there) and at community level you hardly ever see the police (which is also great, cause you don't need them) When they do act though, they can sometimes be pretty heavy. Generally though I like the relaxed attitude here a lot, but that is also a product of the generally law-abiding citizens. It rapidly gets more complicated in complex societies like the US.
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Posted: Jul 14, 2016 - 1:27am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Just a small comment from the sidelines:

@ Kurtster: sure, we are all individuals, each of us posting our own take on things. But collectively we reflect the rich diversity in society. I guess that is why we all talk about these things so much.

@ all: I guess each of us is trying to figure it all out but none of us will get it all right. The very notion of being able to encapsulate all human experience in the eyes of any one individual is a bit of a tall order. Maybe a bit more humility is called for on this topic. It's easy when you are sitting on the pig's back to damn others fighting it out down in the mud. Till you've been there I wouldn't be so quick to judge them on the values that you inherited from your (possibly) comfortable middle-class background and secure jobs. The people we damn so quickly might not even want any of the stuff we value so much. They might find loyalty of their friends and time with their family infinitely relatively more valuable than any material thing or holding down a job. In another time and place, those values might indeed be infinitely more valuable than the sanctimonious protection of private property and diligence in the labor force that our modern societies hold so dear.

I'm not trying to justify crimes or violence by anyone. Just wanting to point out, we all tend to judge others far too quickly using our own individual benchmarks. I really liked G.W. Bush's comment (best thing I have heard him say): "We judge others on their worst example and ourselves on our best intentions."
He nailed that one.  

So what am I saying?  well, I can see the race issue in the States (and it is certainly not alone in this), and I see two distinct trends:
1.  an assertion of all-encompassing common values that hold society together. 
2. a search for the limits on tolerance of diversity and minorities and those who hold values that differ from those commonly held 

When it comes to minorities or sub-cultures there is always going to be a point of friction. How different can you be yet still be part of the whole? What minimum values are you going to expect everybody to uphold? And why should they listen to you?

In my experience the vast majority of police confront this dilemma on a daily basis and have a really good feeling for it. Much more it would seem than some of the commentators I've read over the last couple of days.  

I've also met gang members, some of them murderers, and yes, some of them can be damn fine people in other times and other places. But they are also proud as hell and there is no way they are going to start living in accordance with any other values than the ones they have chosen themselves. Why should they?

So if you want to scale back the racial and other divides in the country, it might pay to scale back the rhetoric a notch or two and be a bit more tolerant about diversity. Return to a set of minimum universal values and expect all to live by them. The richness of the USA is a direct product of its multi-ethnicity. The idea of subsuming all its various subcultures in one bland soup of sameness I found really appalling. 

According to the police officers in my family, enforcing the rule of law is only a small part of the job of policing. Most of it is acting as a conciliator.. resolving conflicts before they arise, being there for the community. These guys are true heroes and none of them expect everyone to be the same. They know a bad apple when they see one and that has nothing to do with the particular sub-culture.
 

 
Great thoughts over all.  On the bolded ... once upon a time we used to call them peace officers ... can we ever get back to that ?

rhetorical thought .. too many laws stripping the police of discretion which leads to an automatic escalation of a problem at hand ...
NoEnzLefttoSplit
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Posted: Jul 14, 2016 - 12:10am

Just a small comment from the sidelines:

@ Kurtster: sure, we are all individuals, each of us posting our own take on things. But collectively we reflect the rich diversity in society. I guess that is why we all talk about these things so much.

@ all: I guess each of us is trying to figure it all out but none of us will get it all right. The very notion of being able to encapsulate all human experience in the eyes of any one individual is a bit of a tall order. Maybe a bit more humility is called for on this topic. It's easy when you are sitting on the pig's back to damn others fighting it out down in the mud. Till you've been there I wouldn't be so quick to judge them on the values that you inherited from your (possibly) comfortable middle-class background and secure jobs. The people we damn so quickly might not even want any of the stuff we value so much. They might find loyalty of their friends and time with their family infinitely relatively more valuable than any material thing or holding down a job. In another time and place, those values might indeed be infinitely more valuable than the sanctimonious protection of private property and diligence in the labor force that our modern societies hold so dear.

I'm not trying to justify crimes or violence by anyone. Just wanting to point out, we all tend to judge others far too quickly using our own individual benchmarks. I really liked G.W. Bush's comment (best thing I have heard him say): "We judge others on their worst example and ourselves on our best intentions."
He nailed that one.  

So what am I saying?  well, I can see the race issue in the States (and it is certainly not alone in this), and I see two distinct trends:
1.  an assertion of all-encompassing common values that hold society together. 
2. a search for the limits on tolerance of diversity and minorities and those who hold values that differ from those commonly held 

When it comes to minorities or sub-cultures there is always going to be a point of friction. How different can you be yet still be part of the whole? What minimum values are you going to expect everybody to uphold? And why should they listen to you?

In my experience the vast majority of police confront this dilemma on a daily basis and have a really good feeling for it. Much more it would seem than some of the commentators I've read over the last couple of days.  

I've also met gang members, some of them murderers, and yes, some of them can be damn fine people in other times and other places. But they are also proud as hell and there is no way they are going to start living in accordance with any other values than the ones they have chosen themselves. Why should they?

So if you want to scale back the racial and other divides in the country, it might pay to scale back the rhetoric a notch or two and be a bit more tolerant about diversity. Return to a set of minimum universal values and expect all to live by them. The richness of the USA is a direct product of its multi-ethnicity. The idea of subsuming all its various subcultures in one bland soup of sameness I found really appalling. 

According to the police officers in my family, enforcing the rule of law is only a small part of the job of policing. Most of it is acting as a conciliator.. resolving conflicts before they arise, being there for the community. These guys are true heroes and none of them expect everyone to be the same. They know a bad apple when they see one and that has nothing to do with the particular sub-culture.
 
Beaker

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Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 11:29pm

 bokey wrote:

The saddest thing is he had the opportunity to be right there with Lincoln and the big boys and instead chose the path of George Wallace and David Duke.

 Such an evil bastard.

 
Indeed.  He had the opportunity to truly do something incredibly positive.  He didn't even try.


bokey
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Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 11:27pm

 Beaker wrote: 
The saddest thing is he had the opportunity to be right there with Lincoln and the big boys and instead chose the path of George Wallace and David Duke.

 Such an evil bastard.


Beaker

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Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 11:22pm

America's Worst President

excerpt:

 

..
Central to the nation’s Herculean effort to end the wrongs of racism was the new determination of police departments, led by New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani and his police commissioner William Bratton, to restore law and order to ghetto neighborhoods, so that civil society could come back to life there, and people wouldn’t have to pay tribute to armed thugs controlling their lives. The old policing had ignored all but the most heinous ghetto crimes. Its spirit was: If they want to kill each other uptown, fine, as long as it stays up there. But for the new policing, all victims deserved police attention, regardless of race. All neighborhoods deserved police protection, regardless of the color of their residents. And since the perpetrators of crime are overwhelmingly young minority men, they properly received a very large proportion of police scrutiny. The alternative, to repeat, was to let them kill each other.

But unlike Lincoln, America’s first black president didn’t bind up the nation’s wounds but scratched them open every time police killed a black man—rightly or sometimes wrongly, because when society arms men with guns and authority, it will inevitably attract some bullies, making a police chief responsible for policing his own men vigilantly, as the NYPD especially has striven to do, and as Plato told us was statecraft’s thorniest problem. Anytime a non-black man killed an African-American, Obama cried racism and said it could have been him or his son, if he’d had one. Every time a cop, white or black, killed a black American, Obama’s reflexive instinct was to blame the cop. About the mayhem of black-on-black murder in the nation’s ghettoes, he gave only a single speech.

When the president praises the Black Lives Matter demonstrators, as if they alone of his fellow countrymen know that platitudinous truth, he is only reinforcing black grievance, when his proper role is to convince ghetto blacks that their lives matter enough for them to take responsibility for them, to stop going around with chips on their shoulders and Glocks in their waistbands, to be fathers to the children they beget, and to set for them an example of the responsible citizenship that is theirs for the asking, thanks to the efforts of so many of their countrymen, white and black, living and dead.

True to form, Obama went into grievance-mongering mode on July 7, commenting on the killings of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile by cops in Louisiana and Minnesota. He noted that “all of us as Americans should be troubled by these shootings, because these are not isolated incidents. They’re symptomatic of a broader set of racial disparities that exist in our criminal justice system.” And he went on to detail law enforcement’s racial disparities, as if there were not even more stark and troubling racial disparities in lawbreaking. His familiar conclusion: “If you add it all up, the African American and Hispanic population, who make up only 30 percent of the general population, make up more than half of the incarcerated population. Now, these are facts. And when incidents like this occur, there’s a big chunk of our fellow citizenry that feels as if because of the color of their skin, they are not being treated the same. And that hurts.”

Later that day, a black former soldier assassinated five Dallas police officers and wounded seven more, sniping from above with a semi-automatic rifle. A sympathizer of the New Black Panther Party, which professes hatred of whites and especially Jews, the sniper, Micah X. Johnson, 25, told police who cornered and killed him that he was avenging cop killings of blacks by killing whites and especially white cops.

If you want to ignite race riots, a sure-fire way to do it is to stir up black hatred and suspicion of cops, which will in turn make cops warier of blacks and more trigger-happy, and so on, until an explosion occurs. So thanks, President Obama. You have set back American race relations by 50 years.




kurtster
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Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 11:18pm





+ 1   {#Arrowd}
Beaker

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Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 11:15pm


kurtster
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Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 8:51pm

 haresfur wrote:

I don't want laws to legislate morality. I want laws to keep immoral and amoral people from acting to the detriment of myself and others.

 
That would be an interesting discussion all by itself.  The intersection between legal behavior and moral values.  Just because you can doesn't mean you should ?  Worthy of a new thread or nevermind, too serious of a discussion for here ?
haresfur
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Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 3:54pm

 kurtster wrote:

I'll stick my nose in here one more time because this is such a salient post.

As a kid ... my parents and some of my teachers in public school made the point, a point that I have posted here many times before  ... you cannot legislate morality .

 As indeed stated above it must come from within.

 
I don't want laws to legislate morality. I want laws to keep immoral and amoral people from acting to the detriment of myself and others.
R_P
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Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 10:41am

After Dallas Shootings, Police Arrest People for Criticizing Cops on Facebook and Twitter
kurtster
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Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 9:18am

 miamizsun wrote:
this raises some great questions...(sfw i know it's the entire article please forgive me)

Over-Policing Is Rooted in Over-Reliance on Politics

 

An Over-Politicized Society

I contend if we continue to drift in this direction, becoming more and more obsessed with finding political solutions to our societal failures, the less and less moral, prosperous, and free our society will be. Morality, prosperity, and liberty cannot be fostered at the point of a gun draped in democratic demands.  Such things can only come from within the hearts and minds of real, flesh-and-blood individuals on the ground, acting to build family, fellowship, and community based upon enthusiastic individual consent.

Let’s remove the burden from the police by repealing all laws that do not explicitly defend life and property.

Once family, fellowship, and community come to be represented by the government then what is sure to follow is the folly of state power: a permission-based society full of entitled masters and passive serfs where what is true, just, and beautiful takes a back seat to the trappings of state power and those who wield it.

In such a society, consent is not enthusiastic and individual but passive and general to the point where violence becomes institutionalized, opaque, and ultimately self-destructive for the vast majority of the population such violence is supposedly meant to defend. In taking up our causes, the state transforms our personal, explicit, and voluntary responsibilities to one another into general, vague, and outright coercive duties, hammering our natural "plowshares" into swords to be wielded by those with state power.

This is no petty point, for when we regard serving our fellow man as a personal responsibility, we posit a society of born-free individuals who are 

 
I'll stick my nose in here one more time because this is such a salient post.

As a kid ... my parents and some of my teachers in public school made the point, a point that I have posted here many times before  ... you cannot legislate morality .

 As indeed stated above it must come from within.


miamizsun

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Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 5:50am

this raises some great questions...(sfw i know it's the entire article please forgive me)

Over-Policing Is Rooted in Over-Reliance on Politics

Following the July 7, 2016 shooting of several police officers in Dallas, DPD Police Chief David Brown has been thrust into the national spotlight, and understandably so. Chief Brown not only has a remarkably tragic personal story—in 2010 his 27-year-old son was shot by Dallas police on Father’s Day seven weeks after he became chief of the DPD—the reforms he has advanced during his tenure as head of the Dallas police have been praised by the likes of Radley Balko as a “national model for community policing.”

How will passing more laws that make potential criminals out of more Americans ease the tension between police and citizenry?

So, whether Chief David Brown likes it or not, he has become the face of law enforcement in the on-going debate over police brutality. And yesterday, he flipped the script of the debate in a way not often suggested by police unions or civil rights activists, saying, “We’re asking cops to do too much in this country. We are. We’re just asking us to do too much. Every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve.”

Brown went on to say since there is not enough “funding” for mental health or drug addiction, the cops are expected to solve the issue. Failing schools and broken homes are supposed to be remedied by the cops too, Brown suggested, as he called for “other parts of our democracy” to help and “not put that burden all on law enforcement.”

I welcome Chief Brown’s suggestion with a qualifier. Indeed, the police are doing “too much” in this country. Yet, I worry Brown along with many civil right activists are caught in a catch-22. The more they call on our democracy to “do something” and pass more laws, the more the burden will necessarily fall upon the police to enforce such laws. For instance, when the Congressional Black Caucus called for gun control after the shootings in Louisiana, Minnesota, and Dallas, did they somehow think their calls for Congressional action would lead to fewer intrusive actions by the police?

How will passing more laws that make potential criminals out of more Americans ease the tension between police and citizenry? How will stripping Americans of more of their freedoms and wealth to fund government programs lead to greater freedom for the people?

More Laws, More Violence

Thus, though the police may be the face of law and order, behind their blue eyes rest the marching orders of politicians riddled with this presumption—that the law is the best tool for bringing order to a society facing complex problems.

Let’s not give the politicians too much credit though. They, of course, are elected by “the people” to presume as much. As Mencken wrote, “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard,” and though I do not think the common people deserve to be victims of police brutality, I am not surprised they have become the victims of their “representative” government. Indifferent to freedom, the people have forged their own chains and have given “themselves” the reins by empowering their government and its agents.

They have forgotten that the law is always backed by the threat of force.

That said, I’d like to amend Chief Brown’s statement about the cops being asked to do too much and solve every societal problem. More than relying on the cops, we are relying too much on politics to solve our problems.

Every societal failure, real or merely perceived, is expected to be remedied by some new law or political program. Whether on the issue of drugs, health, education, broken families, or broken windows, the American people seem unwilling to voluntarily solve such societal problems themselves when they are more than capable of doing so. They would rather rely on political action and new laws leading to more enforcement. They are in no mood to spare the populace the proverbial rod of authority, yet we seem spoiled all the same.

Somehow the people have forgotten the law is not some benign tool or harmless guideline for the social engineering of society. They have forgotten that the law is always backed by the threat of force, and when a person understandably resists the law, even an unjust law, that person will most likely suffer and potentially die for upsetting “the will of the people” as carried out by law enforcement.

An Over-Politicized Society

I contend if we continue to drift in this direction, becoming more and more obsessed with finding political solutions to our societal failures, the less and less moral, prosperous, and free our society will be. Morality, prosperity, and liberty cannot be fostered at the point of a gun draped in democratic demands.  Such things can only come from within the hearts and minds of real, flesh-and-blood individuals on the ground, acting to build family, fellowship, and community based upon enthusiastic individual consent.

Let’s remove the burden from the police by repealing all laws that do not explicitly defend life and property.

Once family, fellowship, and community come to be represented by the government then what is sure to follow is the folly of state power: a permission-based society full of entitled masters and passive serfs where what is true, just, and beautiful takes a back seat to the trappings of state power and those who wield it.

In such a society, consent is not enthusiastic and individual but passive and general to the point where violence becomes institutionalized, opaque, and ultimately self-destructive for the vast majority of the population such violence is supposedly meant to defend. In taking up our causes, the state transforms our personal, explicit, and voluntary responsibilities to one another into general, vague, and outright coercive duties, hammering our natural "plowshares" into swords to be wielded by those with state power.

This is no petty point, for when we regard serving our fellow man as a personal responsibility, we posit a society of born-free individuals who are equal under the law and must help one another through voluntary aid and association. On the contrary, when we see our obligation to serve our fellow man as coercive state duty, we posit a society of rulers and subjects—rulers who need to instill in their subjects a "sense of virtue" by violently imposing whatever duties the state, as demanded by the people, deems desirable.

And in such a society, the cops will certainly be asked to do too much.

Positive and progressive change will not come from passively consenting at the ballot box or raucously marching to the sound of demagogues' marching orders and laments. Change must come from within, person to person, day by day, helping to build the beautiful mosaic of community piece by piece.

So let’s remove the burden from the police and the impositions on the populace at the same time by repealing all laws that do not explicitly defend life and property. After that, there will still be many problems to solve, but at least we will then know most, if not all, societal failures are for us as individuals to solve and not the province of the state.




rhahl
If it sounds good, it is good.
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Posted: Jul 12, 2016 - 5:30pm

KRS-One - Sound of da Police


kurtster
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Posted: Jul 12, 2016 - 4:11pm

 steeler wrote:

Everyone has perspectives based on their experiences.  You have voiced here perspectives based on a "Western" point of view learned from your time growing up in California in 1950s and 1960s, and also based on your "street" experiences in Cleveland. Nothing wrong with any of that, as long as one keeps in mind that others have experiences that may differ from yours, but are just as valid.  
 
I totally get what you're saying.  I hardly ever even look in here and haven't posted in here since last September backscrolling.  I simply asked the chief disparager of cops what he thought about the shootings in Dallas in the manner he usually replies to such questions, then it starts into kittens and dogs as if I'm clueless and uncaring.  I simply mention that I have street experiences and that I do have a clue and do care in reaction.  And that gets called into question.  Sheesh.

Meanwhile Richard doesn't answer except to post a video and sits back and gets a chuckle over the ruckus.  

He can kick cops all he wants.  I'm done in here.  Should'a known better than to poke my nose back in here.


steeler
About three bricks shy of a load
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Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jul 12, 2016 - 3:27pm

 kurtster wrote:

Street level is the lowest point of view in regards to seeing the world.  Its hard to consider much more than what you can see with your own eyes at the moment.  Similar to being unable to see the forest for the trees.  As you move away from the street and rise up, hopefully your view expands and takes into consideration the extras unseen at street level.  But I thought this was a discussion of the street and its values and perspectives.  What does politics matter to people who don't know or care who is president ?  You seem to be trying to make it about something different.  

Just to be germane to the discussion, you have heard the chant, pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon ?

No further discourse required or needed.  I submit to your superior street sense and your summary dismissal. 

 
Everyone has perspectives based on their experiences.  You have voiced here perspectives based on a "Western" point of view learned from your time growing up in California in 1950s and 1960s, and also based on your "street" experiences in Cleveland. Nothing wrong with any of that, as long as one keeps in mind that others have experiences that may differ from yours, but are just as valid.   

 

    


aflanigan
Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity
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Posted: Jul 12, 2016 - 2:52pm

 kurtster wrote:

No further discourse required or needed.  I submit to your superior street sense and your summary dismissal. 

 
Not dismissing you my friend, just declining your invitation to defend yet another straw man stereotype you've set up to knock down right now.


kurtster
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Posted: Jul 12, 2016 - 1:52pm

 aflanigan wrote:

I know from long experience that it is pointless to urge you to broaden your perspective, or consider changing the lens through which you view the world and its human inhabitants.

 
Street level is the lowest point of view in regards to seeing the world.  Its hard to consider much more than what you can see with your own eyes at the moment.  Similar to being unable to see the forest for the trees.  As you move away from the street and rise up, hopefully your view expands and takes into consideration the extras unseen at street level.  But I thought this was a discussion of the street and its values and perspectives.  What does politics matter to people who don't know or care who is president ?  You seem to be trying to make it about something different.  

Just to be germane to the discussion, you have heard the chant, pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon ?

No further discourse required or needed.  I submit to your superior street sense and your summary dismissal. 


aflanigan
Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity
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Location: At Sea
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Aquarius
Chinese Yr: Rat


Posted: Jul 12, 2016 - 1:25pm

 kurtster wrote:

IIRC, the perspective from the street is 'us' versus 'the man'.  'The man' has no party, just power over 'us'.  Depending on which side of the street you walk, one representative form of the man is called 'cops' and on the other side of the street, its 'pigs'.  Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

Not much room for a worldview in the context you seem to be inferring.   There are many lessons to be learned from the streets.  But the simple ones have the most meaning when it comes to seeing the next day.

 
I know from long experience that it is pointless to urge you to broaden your perspective, or consider changing the lens through which you view the world and its human inhabitants.
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