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You really put butter on the hot dog? - Proclivities - Oct 19, 2017 - 12:24pm
 
the genographic project - ScottFromWyoming - Oct 19, 2017 - 12:15pm
 
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Nuclear power - saviour or scourge? - miamizsun - Oct 17, 2017 - 8:37am
 
Backhanded Compliments & "veiled" insults... - Proclivities - Oct 17, 2017 - 8:34am
 
Stuff I Heard Other People Say Out Loud - miamizsun - Oct 17, 2017 - 6:44am
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Ask the Libertarian Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 158, 159, 160  Next
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sirdroseph
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Posted: Sep 2, 2017 - 4:11am

 Lazy8 wrote:


 Well the internet has made it easier to allege that countries meddle in elections, anyway.


 
True, but let's also not be so naive' to think that countries do not meddle in elections, oh they do and the number one offender for years is the United States through the enforcement wing the CIA. There is just no proof that countries have actually hacked into electoral systems and literally altered the votes which is the false insinuation.  Usually the meddling is propaganda and sometimes the point of a gun. I am aware you already know all of this, I suppose it is just important to distinguish between meddling and altering the outcome literally, huge difference that the media seems to want to muddle for some reason.{#Think}


Lazy8
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Posted: Sep 1, 2017 - 12:33pm

 black321 wrote:
Ok, that's fair.  To be clear, i wasn't arguing one way or the other...simply "asking the libertarian."  Thanks for the comments.  I do think it is interesting how the internet has made it easier for countries to allegedly meddle in elections.

Well the internet has made it easier to allege that countries meddle in elections, anyway.
 

 

sirdroseph
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Posted: Sep 1, 2017 - 11:51am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 black321 wrote:

I stumbled upon this…no idea of the source or how accurate, but thought it was at least an interesting read, if not accurate. 

 The Ron Paul and Tea Party ‘revolution’ of 2008 look suspicious, considering Russia’s 2016 hacking

https://timeline.com/ron-paul-russia-hacking-e248f87f38f2


So...Ron Paul's support is fake? All those people who voted for him...didn't? He didn't start Young Americans for Liberty, a thriving campus organization with 900 chapters and 310,000 members? Or are all those people Russian agents?

I have no idea if Russia or Ukraine (Ukraine, btw, is a country that has been at war with Russia since 2014, and wasn't exactly on good terms in 2008 but whatever) sent out spam emails for Ron Paul in 2008. I honestly don't care either. I don't care if Vladimir Putin likes Ron Paul or not, likes the TEA Party (which Dr. Paul is only peripherally involved with) or not.

But let's say Ron Paul (or Donald Trump, for that matter) is Vladimir Putin favorite person ever. Let's say Vladimir Putin personally wrote the spam emails promoting Ron Paul in 2008. Still don't care.

Vladimir Putin doesn't vote in US elections. Vladimir Putin can't make anyone vote for any candidate. If he wants to send out spam emails or go door-to-door he's welcome—that's not only not illegal it does no harm to our electoral process.

If you (or anyone) want's to allege that Russians interfered with an election you're going to have to go beyond "they said some things". You're going to have to show some actual, you know, interference with an election. Changing vote counts. Preventing people from voting. Casting fake ballots.

So far the only allegations I've seen of that kind of activity are by Americans.

So go ahead and make a case, but it better have more than innuendo and six-degrees-of-separation guilt by association to it.
 


 


Thank you.  да здравствует мать россия!


black321
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Posted: Sep 1, 2017 - 11:43am

 Lazy8 wrote:
So...Ron Paul's support is fake? All those people who voted for him...didn't? He didn't start Young Americans for Liberty, a thriving campus organization with 900 chapters and 310,000 members? Or are all those people Russian agents?

I have no idea if Russia or Ukraine (Ukraine, btw, is a country that has been at war with Russia since 2014, and wasn't exactly on good terms in 2008 but whatever) sent out spam emails for Ron Paul in 2008. I honestly don't care either. I don't care if Vladimir Putin likes Ron Paul or not, likes the TEA Party (which Dr. Paul is only peripherally involved with) or not.

But let's say Ron Paul (or Donald Trump, for that matter) is Vladimir Putin favorite person ever. Let's say Vladimir Putin personally wrote the spam emails promoting Ron Paul in 2008. Still don't care.

Vladimir Putin doesn't vote in US elections. Vladimir Putin can't make anyone vote for any candidate. If he wants to send out spam emails or go door-to-door he's welcome—that's not only not illegal it does no harm to our electoral process.

If you (or anyone) want's to allege that Russians interfered with an election you're going to have to go beyond "they said some things". You're going to have to show some actual, you know, interference with an election. Changing vote counts. Preventing people from voting. Casting fake ballots.

So far the only allegations I've seen of that kind of activity are by Americans.

So go ahead and make a case, but it better have more than innuendo and six-degrees-of-separation guilt by association to it.
 
 

Ok, that's fair.  To be clear, i wasn't arguing one way or the other...simply "asking the libertarian."  Thanks for the comments.  I do think it is interesting how the internet has made it easier for countries to allegedly meddle in elections. 


Lazy8
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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
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Posted: Sep 1, 2017 - 11:34am

 black321 wrote:

I stumbled upon this…no idea of the source or how accurate, but thought it was at least an interesting read, if not accurate. 

 The Ron Paul and Tea Party ‘revolution’ of 2008 look suspicious, considering Russia’s 2016 hacking

https://timeline.com/ron-paul-russia-hacking-e248f87f38f2


So...Ron Paul's support is fake? All those people who voted for him...didn't? He didn't start Young Americans for Liberty, a thriving campus organization with 900 chapters and 310,000 members? Or are all those people Russian agents?

I have no idea if Russia or Ukraine (Ukraine, btw, is a country that has been at war with Russia since 2014, and wasn't exactly on good terms in 2008 but whatever) sent out spam emails for Ron Paul in 2008. I honestly don't care either. I don't care if Vladimir Putin likes Ron Paul or not, likes the TEA Party (which Dr. Paul is only peripherally involved with) or not.

But let's say Ron Paul (or Donald Trump, for that matter) is Vladimir Putin favorite person ever. Let's say Vladimir Putin personally wrote the spam emails promoting Ron Paul in 2008. Still don't care.

Vladimir Putin doesn't vote in US elections. Vladimir Putin can't make anyone vote for any candidate. If he wants to send out spam emails or go door-to-door he's welcome—that's not only not illegal it does no harm to our electoral process.

If you (or anyone) want's to allege that Russians interfered with an election you're going to have to go beyond "they said some things". You're going to have to show some actual, you know, interference with an election. Changing vote counts. Preventing people from voting. Casting fake ballots.

So far the only allegations I've seen of that kind of activity are by Americans.

So go ahead and make a case, but it better have more than innuendo and six-degrees-of-separation guilt by association to it.
 

black321
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Posted: Sep 1, 2017 - 9:08am

I stumbled upon this…no idea of the source or how accurate, but thought it was at least an interesting read, if not accurate. 

 The Ron Paul and Tea Party ‘revolution’ of 2008 look suspicious, considering Russia’s 2016 hacking

https://timeline.com/ron-paul-russia-hacking-e248f87f38f2

 




miamizsun

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Posted: Aug 31, 2017 - 12:17pm



What the Alt-Right Gets Wrong

Libertarians should reject right-wing populism in all its forms.

Some news outlets have claimed that there's a troubling "pipeline" from libertarianism to the most revolting corners of the alt-right movement.

Their evidence is that white supremacist Christopher Cantwell, the star of a Vice documentary about the racist, tiki torch-wielding Charlottesville mob, was once a figure in the libertarian Free State project, and alt-right icon and white nationalist Richard Spencer himself was once a Ron Paul supporter and self-identified as a libertarian.

Anyone who claims to care about individual liberty should reject the overt racism in Charlottesville, the broadly defined alt-right and the watered down "alt-lite" variants represented by provocateurs like Milo Yiannopoulous and YouTube personalities Stefan Molyneux and Laura Southern, as well as the right-wing nationalism pushed by recently fired White House strategist Steve Bannon.

These expressions of right wing populism are the anti-thesis of libertarianism and they collapse under their own logic.


Lazy8
human
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Posted: Apr 11, 2017 - 12:31pm

 black321 wrote:
So in addition to increased capital investments (being on a few different campuses the last couple years, I have seen soft evidence of this given the projects underway), we have rising overhead/admin costs...which it seems adds little value to the education...which is further exasperated by rising costs for benefits (pensions and health care).  Looking at public k-12 schools in my area, the benefit part of the equation eats about 30% of the budget. 

So we have rising capital and benefit costs (healthcare)...along with more paper pushing suits.  Except for the benefit bit, the other two could/should be easy fixes. 

In NY out of state tuition is still a bargain at about $16k.  My son goes to Illinois (out of state) where tuition is about $35k..and the labor for most of his classes is already spread pretty thin (large lecture halls). 

Once you have arena-sized lecture halls and office hours held entirely by poorly-paid grad students it's hard to find cost savings in direct labor (teaching). It's all overhead. Which keeps growing.

And—the root of the problem—parents and students keep paying for it, so it keeps happening.
black321
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Posted: Apr 11, 2017 - 12:20pm

 miamizsun wrote:

"Before we can find any solution, it is important to understand the root cause of the rising prices. Professor Lin finds that increased demand—fueled by improved job prospects for graduates and increased government assistance—is to blame for soaring tuition prices. Knowing the cause should inform our search for a solution."

politically if you want more of something subsidize it

The Student Debt Crisis Is the Predictable Consequence of Subsidies



National Bureau of Economic Research has some info on that as well




 
but over the past 30 years, it seems the amount of subsidies has declined?  For the average student, they only qualify for about $6k in "subsidized" loans...with the subsidy consisting of a deferral on when payments start (after graduation).  The interest rates on these loans aren't particularly attractive.  Even the full subsidies for low income families have declined...while prices continued to climb. 

Still, the demand has remained strong. 
miamizsun

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Posted: Apr 11, 2017 - 11:27am

 black321 wrote:

So this video is basically arguing that due to rising demand, schools are raising prices because they can, and using that cash windfall to invest in new facilities/capital investments....instead using the higher demand/revenue to leverage their costs, which would allow them to lower their tuition rates.  Possible, but I'd be interested seeing any real evidence/data behind this theory.  If its true, then we have a very simple fix to our tuition issue.  Highlight the issue and get colleges to return to a normal rate of capital investments.

p.s., at the state level, a simple solution would be to curb out of state enrollment, or at least shift more of the tuition burden to those students.
 
"Before we can find any solution, it is important to understand the root cause of the rising prices. Professor Lin finds that increased demand—fueled by improved job prospects for graduates and increased government assistance—is to blame for soaring tuition prices. Knowing the cause should inform our search for a solution."

politically if you want more of something subsidize it

The Student Debt Crisis Is the Predictable Consequence of Subsidies



National Bureau of Economic Research has some info on that as well





black321
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Posted: Apr 11, 2017 - 11:18am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 black321 wrote:
So this video is basically arguing that due to rising demand, schools are raising prices because they can, and using that cash windfall to invest in new facilities/capital investments....instead using the higher demand/revenue to leverage their costs, which would allow them to lower their tuition rates.  Possible, but I'd be interested seeing any real evidence/data behind this theory.  If its true, then we have a very simple fix to our tuition issue.  Highlight the issue and get colleges to return to a normal rate of capital investments.

p.s., at the state level, a simple solution would be to curb out of state enrollment, or at least shift more of the tuition burden to those students.

At least in my state out-of-state students pay full freight, locals get subsidized, and foreign students pay a premium. They work pretty hard to attract foreign students.

It's not that administrators raise prices just because they can, the effect is subtler than that—raising prices doesn't reduce demand, so the disincentive disappears. It becomes the first choice to balance the books rather than the last. Ironically state schools have had better fiscal discipline because in the absence of economic restraints on increasing prices political restraints act. Most state schools have to at least ask a board of governors (if not the lege) to raise tuition.

One of the problems with the traditional model of education is that it's driven to a large degree by labor costs. In other industries when labor gets expensive you automate. Leverage that labor over more units to keep the cost down, whether that means using combines instead of mowing with scythes and threshing or giving managers PCs to type their own memos instead of hiring secretaries. In education you still have one prof and a roomful of students.

Added on top of that you have the explosive growth in the numbers of administrators. We see this in public as well as private schools; a higher and higher percentage of the people who work there don't teach, and when enrollment drops (as it did, drastically, at one of my states schools recently) the staff they cut is teaching staff rather than overhead. Gotta have a Title IX Compliance Officer and someone to run the fitness center even if you only have four student left in the department.

 
So in addition to increased capital investments (being on a few different campuses the last couple years, I have seen soft evidence of this given the projects underway), we have rising overhead/admin costs...which it seems adds little value to the education...which is further exasperated by rising costs for benefits (pensions and health care).  Looking at public k-12 schools in my area, the benefit part of the equation eats about 30% of the budget. 

So we have rising capital and benefit costs (healthcare)...along with more paper pushing suits.  Except for the benefit bit, the other two could/should be easy fixes. 

In NY out of state tuition is still a bargain at about $16k.  My son goes to Illinois (out of state) where tuition is about $35k..and the labor for most of his classes is already spread pretty thin (large lecture halls). 
Lazy8
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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 11, 2017 - 10:55am

 black321 wrote:
So this video is basically arguing that due to rising demand, schools are raising prices because they can, and using that cash windfall to invest in new facilities/capital investments....instead using the higher demand/revenue to leverage their costs, which would allow them to lower their tuition rates.  Possible, but I'd be interested seeing any real evidence/data behind this theory.  If its true, then we have a very simple fix to our tuition issue.  Highlight the issue and get colleges to return to a normal rate of capital investments.

p.s., at the state level, a simple solution would be to curb out of state enrollment, or at least shift more of the tuition burden to those students.

At least in my state out-of-state students pay full freight, locals get subsidized, and foreign students pay a premium. They work pretty hard to attract foreign students.

It's not that administrators raise prices just because they can, the effect is subtler than that—raising prices doesn't reduce demand, so the disincentive disappears. It becomes the first choice to balance the books rather than the last. Ironically state schools have had better fiscal discipline because in the absence of economic restraints on increasing prices political restraints act. Most state schools have to at least ask a board of governors (if not the lege) to raise tuition.

One of the problems with the traditional model of education is that it's driven to a large degree by labor costs. In other industries when labor gets expensive you automate. Leverage that labor over more units to keep the cost down, whether that means using combines instead of mowing with scythes and threshing or giving managers PCs to type their own memos instead of hiring secretaries. In education you still have one prof and a roomful of students.

Added on top of that you have the explosive growth in the numbers of administrators. We see this in public as well as private schools; a higher and higher percentage of the people who work there don't teach, and when enrollment drops (as it did, drastically, at one of my states schools recently) the staff they cut is teaching staff rather than overhead. Gotta have a Title IX Compliance Officer and someone to run the fitness center even if you only have four student left in the department.
black321
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Posted: Apr 11, 2017 - 10:26am

 miamizsun wrote:

there are a few short videos over at learn liberty that may explain this


 
So this video is basically arguing that due to rising demand, schools are raising prices because they can, and using that cash windfall to invest in new facilities/capital investments....instead using the higher demand/revenue to leverage their costs, which would allow them to lower their tuition rates.  Possible, but I'd be interested seeing any real evidence/data behind this theory.  If its true, then we have a very simple fix to our tuition issue.  Highlight the issue and get colleges to return to a normal rate of capital investments.

p.s., at the state level, a simple solution would be to curb out of state enrollment, or at least shift more of the tuition burden to those students.


Lazy8
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Posted: Apr 8, 2017 - 9:16pm

 aflanigan wrote:
If your premise is specifically limited to cost and quality in telecom services and has no applicability to any other type of market, it's not very valuable in the service of promoting the libertarian view of the world, I would say.

Bottom line is you're not convinced by my small collection of data points, and I'm not thoroughly convinced by yours.

I would say that means it's time for another weekend!

 {#Cheers}

Well, that's the topic (not premise) we were discussing. Well, I was discussing. You seem to be doing anything you can to avoid discussing it. I'm not convinced you're actually reading any of this before responding, and baffled why anyone else would be.

So yeah, weekend. Mine's going pretty well, hope yours is likewise.
aflanigan
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Posted: Apr 7, 2017 - 2:08pm

If your premise is specifically limited to cost and quality in telecom services and has no applicability to any other type of market, it's not very valuable in the service of promoting the libertarian view of the world, I would say.

Bottom line is you're not convinced by my small collection of data points, and I'm not thoroughly convinced by yours.

I would say that means it's time for another weekend!

 {#Cheers}
Lazy8
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Posted: Apr 7, 2017 - 12:48pm

 aflanigan wrote:
How about we look at the change in cost of various services/products, both regulated (toys, cars, cell phone) and relatively unregulated (textbooks, college tuition), compared to inflation to determine whether regulation prevents consumers from benefiting from competition.

 

At risk of repeating myself (because I'm repeating myself) you haven't touched the argument.

Yes, there are a number of factors that can affect prices, but when you hold those the same between two test samples you see the effect of the things that are different between the two samples.

Are you arguing that there are other differences (technology, population, climate...) between Denmark and the US that explain the difference in cost and quality of internet services? Then say so, and name those differences.

You could also point to counterexamples: places were deregulating telecom markets produced worse (rather than better) results.

Look, I'm trying to be generous here—offering you ways to falsify my premise. That isn't the only approach, of course; you could argue that despite worse outcome by any measurable metric there are other compelling reasons to favor a regulatory environment like ours. National security. Feng shui. Fewer annoying ringtones. Hell, make your own argument—but at least address the topic.
miamizsun

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Posted: Apr 7, 2017 - 11:55am

 aflanigan wrote:

How about we look at the change in cost of various services/products, both regulated (toys, cars, cell phone) and relatively unregulated (textbooks, college tuition), compared to inflation to determine whether regulation prevents consumers from benefiting from competition.

 

 
there are a few short videos over at learn liberty that may explain this



aflanigan
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Posted: Apr 7, 2017 - 11:17am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 aflanigan wrote:
The original post was yours. Please explain how one cherry picked nonanalogous example is a sound basis for determining policy.

I tried to make sense of your argument that the example wasn't analogous and drew a blank. Repeating your claim doesn't justify it.

"Cherry picked" implies that there are counterexamples that I ignored. Name them.

 
How about we look at the change in cost of various services/products, both regulated (toys, cars, cell phone) and relatively unregulated (textbooks, college tuition), compared to inflation to determine whether regulation prevents consumers from benefiting from competition.

 
Lazy8
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Posted: Apr 6, 2017 - 3:40pm

 aflanigan wrote:
The original post was yours. Please explain how one cherry picked nonanalogous example is a sound basis for determining policy.

I tried to make sense of your argument that the example wasn't analogous and drew a blank. Repeating your claim doesn't justify it.

"Cherry picked" implies that there are counterexamples that I ignored. Name them.
aflanigan
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Posted: Apr 6, 2017 - 3:03pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
 aflanigan wrote:
The other thing going on here is that L8 is pointing to a single example of dubious relevancy with respect to the US as a basis for setting policy. Denmark, if I'm not mistaken, is rather different from the US in that they don't have states with significant ruling autonomy. Their regions have limited authority to make laws, and I suspect economic policy and other issues relevant to businesses are decided solely at the national level. 

If I were offering this kind of argument (cherry picked example based on apples to oranges comparison), he'd probably be all over me for it, understandably so. 

So an example of near-total deregulation working splendidly isn't relevant because...in the US states and municipalities can still regulate?

Please elaborate. Explain why that justifies a national regulatory structure.

And yes, I realize that foreign countries are foreign. Otherwise they'd be us. But if we deregulated something in the US that still wouldn't be a good example because mumble mumble.

 
The original post was yours. Please explain how one cherry picked nonanalogous example is a sound basis for determining policy.
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