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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Ask the Libertarian Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 140, 141, 142  Next
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aflanigan
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Posted: Jun 13, 2016 - 7:14am

For good or ill in terms of the party's visibility and viability, the current election season, featuring two historically disliked presumptive nominees, is prompting the media to pay some real attention to the Libertarian party/candidates.

Gary Johnson is Here to Tell You You're a Libertarian 

If I were a politician, being insulted by Donald Trump is a badge of honor I would also wear with pride.


aflanigan
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Posted: Jun 13, 2016 - 7:08am

 Lazy8 wrote:


So you're kind of half right: the Democrats are happy to Libertarians in the race because we usually take a bigger bite out of Republican candidates than Democratic.
 
Uh, maybe not. (check out the "vote by ideology" category)
R_P
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Posted: Jun 3, 2016 - 8:35am

 miamizsun wrote:
he's embraced transparency {#Wink}
 
{#Cheesygrin}
{#Dancingbanana}
aflanigan
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Posted: Jun 3, 2016 - 8:26am

 Lazy8 wrote:


Let's examine another possibility: that people you despise actually have principles, and would put them before their own political careers. Try and wrap your head around that.

 
You're rather testy. Someone got up on the wrong side of the internet, obviously.

{#Wink} 
miamizsun

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Posted: Jun 3, 2016 - 5:56am

 sirdroseph wrote:
Um.. thoughtful people might say that the Libertarians are the true progressives certainly when it comes to social issues.  Just a thought.
 
practically all political language/definitions have been commandeered

it's hard for people to have a discussion unless they can agree on definitions first

 
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Posted: Jun 3, 2016 - 5:48am

 R_P wrote:

Makes me wonder about the actual principle in play with the Naked Cherub candidate. {#Wink}

 
he's embraced transparency {#Wink}
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Posted: Jun 3, 2016 - 2:18am

 Red_Dragon wrote:

Um... like say, progressive candidates who might also have principals and put them before their political careers, say? Just a thought.

 
Um.. thoughtful people might say that the Libertarians are the true progressives certainly when it comes to social issues.  Just a thought.


Red_Dragon
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Posted: Jun 2, 2016 - 6:57pm

 Lazy8 wrote:


Yep, just like that.

 
wellokaythen
Lazy8
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Posted: Jun 2, 2016 - 6:49pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:
Um... like say, progressive candidates who might also have principals and put them before their political careers, say? Just a thought.

Yep, just like that.
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Posted: Jun 2, 2016 - 6:49pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:

Um... like say, progressive candidates who might also have principals and put them before their political careers, say? Just a thought.

 
{#Bounce}
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Posted: Jun 2, 2016 - 6:43pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
Let's examine another possibility: that people you despise actually have principles, and would put them before their own political careers. Try and wrap your head around that.

 
Um... like say, progressive candidates who might also have principals and put them before their political careers, say? Just a thought.


R_P
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Posted: Jun 2, 2016 - 5:06pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
Let's examine another possibility: that people you despise actually have principles, and would put them before their own political careers. Try and wrap your head around that.
 
Makes me wonder about the actual principle in play with the Naked Cherub candidate. {#Wink}
Lazy8
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Posted: Jun 2, 2016 - 4:04pm

 aflanigan wrote:
So why did his supposed enemy grease the skids in Kentucky to allow him to run for Prez and also for Senate as a Republican? Yea, tell me again about how McConnell has previously refused to have anything to do with Paul.
You probably wouldn't like my explanations regarding the rise of Trump.

So Mitch McConnell will kiss any ass he needs to to stay in power. A shocking revelation.

Politics has made for strange bedfellows before, and this is no different. Both McConnell and Paul have to answer to the voters of Kentucky, who would rather they got along than stayed at war with each other. And imagine the fallout back home if McConnell had endorsed somebody else and Paul's campaign had flourished.

They both know which side their bread is buttered on.

As far as LP being the doorway to political success, I never said it was a strategy that would succeed, but when you've been stuck at the bottom of the well, you'll grasp at any straw that's offered.

Let's examine another possibility: that people you despise actually have principles, and would put them before their own political careers. Try and wrap your head around that.
aflanigan
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Posted: Jun 2, 2016 - 2:19pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
aflanigan wrote:
I would say that the GOP (and the Dems, if presented with the opportunity) would welcome libertarian candidates (either official or self-described) if it suited their purposes, as the GOP seems to have done recently. Weren't they ready to hitch their wagon to Rand Paul when he was seen as the great young white hope to unseat the Democratic party, until he proved to be a rather ineffectual senator and presidential candidate? The recent version of the GOP has been generally big on ideological purity and litmus tests, but if I recall correctly the party establishment didn't jump up to put the RINO label on Rand Paul when he ran for senate, did they?

Um...you need to get out of your bubble more.

Mitch McConnell campaigned against Rand Paul in the primaries for the Kentucky Senate seat he now holds. The Republican leadership has hurled all manner of insults at him ("looney bird" was one of my favorites) and he's been at odds with them more often than not. During his filibuster over drone warfare not a single Republican senator stood with him.

No, the Republican party barely tolerates its libertarian wing. They regard the LP the way Al Gore's campaign viewed the Greens: as spoilers stealing their votes. In the last election the Republican party sued to get Libertarians kicked off the ballot for Senate in my own state and for governor in Virginia; the LP vote more than covered the margins of victory for the Democrats that ultimately won.

So you're kind of half right: the Democrats are happy to Libertarians in the race because we usually take a bigger bite out of Republican candidates than Democratic. This year that may change, at least at the top of the ticket. but I digress.

The party leadership is big on litmus tests and ideological purity (look what happened to Eric Cantor) but the voters don't seem to be this year. Otherwise...explain the rise of Trump.

I suspect libertarian politicians are like any other type. At bottom, they are compelled to be opportunists. If they see opportunity in aligning themselves with a group, or leaving a group, they will probably seriously consider it if it will advance their political caree.

Right, the LP is the ultimate pathway to power. {#Roflol}

 
So why did his supposed enemy grease the skids in Kentucky to allow him to run for Prez and also for Senate as a Republican? Yea, tell me again about how McConnell has previously refused to have anything to do with Paul.
You probably wouldn't like my explanations regarding the rise of Trump.

As far as LP being the doorway to political success, I never said it was a strategy that would succeed, but when you've been stuck at the bottom of the well, you'll grasp at any straw that's offered. 
Lazy8
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Posted: Jun 2, 2016 - 1:23pm

aflanigan wrote:
I would say that the GOP (and the Dems, if presented with the opportunity) would welcome libertarian candidates (either official or self-described) if it suited their purposes, as the GOP seems to have done recently. Weren't they ready to hitch their wagon to Rand Paul when he was seen as the great young white hope to unseat the Democratic party, until he proved to be a rather ineffectual senator and presidential candidate? The recent version of the GOP has been generally big on ideological purity and litmus tests, but if I recall correctly the party establishment didn't jump up to put the RINO label on Rand Paul when he ran for senate, did they?

Um...you need to get out of your bubble more.

Mitch McConnell campaigned against Rand Paul in the primaries for the Kentucky Senate seat he now holds. The Republican leadership has hurled all manner of insults at him ("looney bird" was one of my favorites) and he's been at odds with them more often than not. During his filibuster over drone warfare not a single Republican senator stood with him.

No, the Republican party barely tolerates its libertarian wing. They regard the LP the way Al Gore's campaign viewed the Greens: as spoilers stealing their votes. In the last election the Republican party sued to get Libertarians kicked off the ballot for Senate in my own state and for governor in Virginia; the LP vote more than covered the margins of victory for the Democrats that ultimately won.

So you're kind of half right: the Democrats are happy to Libertarians in the race because we usually take a bigger bite out of Republican candidates than Democratic. This year that may change, at least at the top of the ticket. but I digress.

The party leadership is big on litmus tests and ideological purity (look what happened to Eric Cantor) but the voters don't seem to be this year. Otherwise...explain the rise of Trump.

I suspect libertarian politicians are like any other type. At bottom, they are compelled to be opportunists. If they see opportunity in aligning themselves with a group, or leaving a group, they will probably seriously consider it if it will advance their political caree.

Right, the LP is the ultimate pathway to power. {#Roflol}
aflanigan
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Posted: Jun 2, 2016 - 11:45am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 aflanigan wrote:
It was right there in the subhed, if you had bothered to read carefully.

The only way for Gary Johnson to succeed is to leave his party behind

And reiterated more clearly in the body of the article:

 "the only way for the party’s ticket to succeed in a big way—to get on the debate stage with the major-party candidates in the fall, and to reach double digits in November—is for the ticket to leave the party behind."

They would be doing no more than the Pauls have done, basically (i.e. use the LP as a springboard to get into the politicla mainstream). But hey, why engage in serious dialogue when there's media to be bashed! 

Sorry, I was distracted by the title, "Libertarians Are Loons".

He devoted all of one sentence to it. Had he treated Johnson and Weld as serious candidates that thesis might have some credibility, but he just used it as a vehicle to bash the LP.

As for the Pauls: Ron Paul moved in and out of the mainstream, as I pointed out. His run on the LP ticket didn't exactly rocket him to credibility, he already had credibility. Rand Paul has never been associated with the LP.

Libertarian politics hasn't been a springboard to mainstream electoral success, probably the opposite. If anything the incumbent parties have treated members who detoured thru the LP as outcasts, like Ron Paul and Bob Barr.

 
I would say that the GOP (and the Dems, if presented with the opportunity) would welcome libertarian candidates (either official or self-described) if it suited their purposes, as the GOP seems to have done recently. Weren't they ready to hitch their wagon to Rand Paul when he was seen as the great young white hope to unseat the Democratic party, until he proved to be a rather ineffectual senator and presidential candidate? The recent version of the GOP has been generally big on ideological purity and litmus tests, but if I recall correctly the party establishment didn't jump up to put the RINO label on Rand Paul when he ran for senate, did they?

I suspect libertarian politicians are like any other type. At bottom, they are compelled to be opportunists. If they see opportunity in aligning themselves with a group, or leaving a group, they will probably seriously consider it if it will advance their political caree. 
ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Jun 2, 2016 - 10:58am

 Lazy8 wrote:
Had he treated Johnson and Weld as serious candidates that thesis might have some credibility, but he just used it as a vehicle to bash the LP.
 
I read the article as treating Johnson and Weld as serious candidates, pointing out for newcomers that they won't be in the debates if their polling doesn't rise (but that their poll numbers are moving up).
Lazy8
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Posted: Jun 2, 2016 - 9:18am

 aflanigan wrote:
It was right there in the subhed, if you had bothered to read carefully.

The only way for Gary Johnson to succeed is to leave his party behind

And reiterated more clearly in the body of the article:

 "the only way for the party’s ticket to succeed in a big way—to get on the debate stage with the major-party candidates in the fall, and to reach double digits in November—is for the ticket to leave the party behind."

They would be doing no more than the Pauls have done, basically (i.e. use the LP as a springboard to get into the politicla mainstream). But hey, why engage in serious dialogue when there's media to be bashed! 

Sorry, I was distracted by the title, "Libertarians Are Loons".

He devoted all of one sentence to it. Had he treated Johnson and Weld as serious candidates that thesis might have some credibility, but he just used it as a vehicle to bash the LP.

As for the Pauls: Ron Paul moved in and out of the mainstream, as I pointed out. His run on the LP ticket didn't exactly rocket him to credibility, he already had credibility. Rand Paul has never been associated with the LP.

Libertarian politics hasn't been a springboard to mainstream electoral success, probably the opposite. If anything the incumbent parties have treated members who detoured thru the LP as outcasts, like Ron Paul and Bob Barr.
aflanigan
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Posted: Jun 2, 2016 - 8:29am

 Lazy8 wrote:

What thesis? 
It was right there in the subhed, if you had bothered to read carefully.

The only way for Gary Johnson to succeed is to leave his party behind

And reiterated more clearly in the body of the article:

 "the only way for the party’s ticket to succeed in a big way—to get on the debate stage with the major-party candidates in the fall, and to reach double digits in November—is for the ticket to leave the party behind."

They would be doing no more than the Pauls have done, basically (i.e. use the LP as a springboard to get into the politicla mainstream). But hey, why engage in serious dialogue when there's media to be bashed! 

Lazy8
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Posted: Jun 1, 2016 - 6:05am

 miamizsun wrote:
unfortunately salon.com is right there with them...

Yeah, they've always been overtly hostile. Slate at least attempts a veneer of impartiality.
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