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Trump - kcar - May 24, 2016 - 2:01pm
 
Ask the Libertarian - aflanigan - May 24, 2016 - 1:48pm
 
BACK TO THE 80's - KurtfromLaQuinta - May 24, 2016 - 1:23pm
 
Oops! - aflanigan - May 24, 2016 - 1:08pm
 
Radio Paradise Comments - BlueHeronDruid - May 24, 2016 - 1:08pm
 
Back to the 70's - aflanigan - May 24, 2016 - 1:06pm
 
Photos you have taken of yourself - DaveInVA - May 24, 2016 - 12:54pm
 
Bug Reports & Feature Requests - DaveInVA - May 24, 2016 - 12:51pm
 
Make Jrzy Laugh - JrzyTmata - May 24, 2016 - 12:38pm
 
The Image Post - ScottFromWyoming - May 24, 2016 - 12:37pm
 
Mixtape Culture Club - ScottFromWyoming - May 24, 2016 - 12:13pm
 
Fake Clouds or Geo Engineering ???? - lily34 - May 24, 2016 - 11:47am
 
2016 Elections - Beaker - May 24, 2016 - 11:12am
 
Counting with Pictures - Proclivities - May 24, 2016 - 11:04am
 
RP Daily Trivia Challenge - KurtfromLaQuinta - May 24, 2016 - 9:59am
 
OUR CATS!! - Skydog - May 24, 2016 - 9:52am
 
Things You Thought Today - ScottFromWyoming - May 24, 2016 - 9:40am
 
What Makes You Laugh? - lily34 - May 24, 2016 - 8:06am
 
Poetry Forum - Antigone - May 24, 2016 - 7:53am
 
Back to 3:22am CST, March 13, 1981... - Red_Dragon - May 24, 2016 - 7:53am
 
Name My Band - Red_Dragon - May 24, 2016 - 7:48am
 
Environment - R_P - May 24, 2016 - 7:47am
 
Loudness Wars - black321 - May 24, 2016 - 7:47am
 
Pernicious Pious Proclivities Particularized Prodigiously - Proclivities - May 24, 2016 - 7:37am
 
Climate Change - R_P - May 24, 2016 - 7:28am
 
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Celebrity Face Recognition - Proclivities - May 24, 2016 - 6:42am
 
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Back to the 90's - Skydog - May 24, 2016 - 6:14am
 
Manbird's Episiotomy Stitch Licking Clinic - KEEP OUT - lily34 - May 24, 2016 - 6:08am
 
Bob Dylan - buzz - May 24, 2016 - 5:50am
 
Baseball, anyone? - Skydog - May 24, 2016 - 4:46am
 
The End of Europe - rotekz - May 24, 2016 - 3:59am
 
Unindicted felon: candidate Hillary Clinton - rotekz - May 24, 2016 - 1:24am
 
What Did You Do Today? - BlueHeronDruid - May 23, 2016 - 9:28pm
 
Would you drive this car for dating with ur girl? - BlueHeronDruid - May 23, 2016 - 9:20pm
 
Sunrise, Sunset - islander - May 23, 2016 - 8:58pm
 
Animal Resistance - ErikX - May 23, 2016 - 8:34pm
 
Back To 1969 - ScottFromWyoming - May 23, 2016 - 7:39pm
 
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The Voice - buddy - May 23, 2016 - 7:06pm
 
Back To The 50's - Skydog - May 23, 2016 - 5:58pm
 
Make Lily34 Laugh - Red_Dragon - May 23, 2016 - 5:36pm
 
Cryptic Posts - Leave Them Guessing - porphyrius - May 23, 2016 - 4:35pm
 
YouTube: Music-Videos - R_P - May 23, 2016 - 3:16pm
 
Austria - R_P - May 23, 2016 - 12:43pm
 
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Canada - Proclivities - May 23, 2016 - 10:58am
 
kurtster's ear candy emporium - kurtster - May 23, 2016 - 10:30am
 
What Are You Going To Do Today? - helenofjoy - May 23, 2016 - 8:00am
 
Guns - rotekz - May 23, 2016 - 12:55am
 
Gawd, are we such dumb low lifes?..... Sophie Gregoire T... - rotekz - May 23, 2016 - 12:54am
 
Music and the Brain - kcar - May 22, 2016 - 11:28pm
 
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Those lovable acronym guys & gals - R_P - May 22, 2016 - 9:06pm
 
Photos you haven't taken of yourself - KurtfromLaQuinta - May 22, 2016 - 8:57pm
 
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Australia has Disappeared - Red_Dragon - May 22, 2016 - 5:53pm
 
France - Steely_D - May 22, 2016 - 3:35pm
 
Positive Thoughts and Prayer Requests - buddy - May 22, 2016 - 1:11pm
 
Caretakers Of Our Parents - oldviolin - May 22, 2016 - 12:35pm
 
Celebrity Deaths - oldviolin - May 22, 2016 - 12:32pm
 
Humane mouse trap? - bokey - May 22, 2016 - 11:01am
 
Funny Videos - DaveInVA - May 22, 2016 - 10:24am
 
Museum Of Bad Album Covers - Steve - May 22, 2016 - 9:08am
 
Birds' nest - JrzyTmata - May 22, 2016 - 8:55am
 
Gotta Get Your Drink On - helenofjoy - May 22, 2016 - 7:01am
 
NETFLIX - R_P - May 22, 2016 - 12:22am
 
RP t-shirts - BlueHeronDruid - May 21, 2016 - 6:28pm
 
How much is your monthly cellphone bill? - aflanigan - May 21, 2016 - 10:47am
 
Israel - R_P - May 21, 2016 - 10:05am
 
Oh GOD, they're GAY! - Red_Dragon - May 21, 2016 - 7:11am
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Ask the Libertarian Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 139, 140, 141  Next
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aflanigan
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Posted: May 24, 2016 - 1:48pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
 aflanigan wrote:
So who's going to the Libertarian Convention in Orlando this weekend?

I'm hoping you can pick me up some "Libertarian Party: Not Republocrats!" Merch. Men's medium, please. Hat size 7 3/8 

This year's theme is "Legalize Freedom", which is almost as lame.

I do have a bumper sticker tho, and I'm trying to think of a bet I can make with you that ends with you putting it on your car...

 
It would be right at home next to my "Vermin Supreme" bumper sticker.

EDIT: A bet/contest sounds intriguing. Maybe a word salad contest? 

We could each take up our favored political bent of the moment, Progressivism or Modern Liberalism for me, Libertarianism or Classic Liberalism for you, and try and generate the most garbled, inane, nonsensical paragraph or two that includes a handful of keywords in it (like social contract, liberty, economic freedom, tragedy of the commons, etc.) .

The challenge then would be to find a judge to declare a winner if we can't agree amongst ourselves. 

Or we could do something more straightforward, like betting on a particular occurrence during the upcoming convention season (Donald Trump exhibiting his member during his acceptance speech, just as a hypothetical example, or Hillary Clinton barking like a dog).
NoEnzLefttoSplit
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Posted: May 24, 2016 - 1:34pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
" It only seeks to shift the burden of proof concerning when it is appropriate to unleash the violence of the law on people"
 
hmm....  I am ready to concede that violence of the law is a pretty good description of the state's self-proclaimed monopoly on the power of coercion.

what I am missing though is a framework that gives me some kind of benchmark for deciding when and what is appropriate.

The older I get, the less certain I get about any kind of hard and fast ideals to hang such a framework on. I am generally a big fan of redistributing wealth so that the fruits of civilisation are at least attainable for all. The work needed to get off your butt to pick that fruit is something else again but I am against any system that de facto makes certain benefits beyond the reach of any particular individual. For all the cleanliness of its philosophy I still don't know how libertarianism can realise this without some form of coerced or "enlightened" voluntary distribution.

 
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Posted: May 24, 2016 - 1:33pm

 aflanigan wrote:
So who's going to the Libertarian Convention in Orlando this weekend?

I'm hoping you can pick me up some "Libertarian Party: Not Republocrats!" Merch. Men's medium, please. Hat size 7 3/8 

This year's theme is "Legalize Freedom", which is almost as lame.

I do have a bumper sticker tho, and I'm trying to think of a bet I can make with you that ends with you putting it on your car...
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Posted: May 24, 2016 - 12:51pm

Why are so many Libertarians becoming pro-life these days? Or prolife Republocrats switching to Libertarian Party?  Or Libertarians switching to GOP and supporting prolife, like Rand Paul etc. 
Ayn Rand would be rolling in her grave. lol 


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Posted: May 24, 2016 - 12:42pm

So who's going to the Libertarian Convention in Orlando this weekend?

I'm hoping you can pick me up some "Libertarian Party: Not Republocrats!" Merch. Men's medium, please. Hat size 7 3/8 
sirdroseph
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Posted: Mar 31, 2016 - 8:28am

Gary Johnson For Dummies

 

http://theodysseyonline.com/columbus-st/gary-johnson-for-dummies/383068

 

 


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Posted: Mar 26, 2016 - 8:34am

Tibor Machan has died.

He was a founding editor for Reason magazine and a huge influence on libertarian thought. This is the best obituary I've seen so far. A snippet:

Tibor R. Machan on the Questions that Matter

A great philosopher and journalist has died


Amid this fog, Machan’s contributions to the volume were a brilliant shaft of light and clarity. He brought around the focus of debate to the crucial issue. Regardless of your views on culture, philosophy, literature, religion, morality and so on, the central question that society needs to answer is the following: under what conditions are you willing to use the force of law, the coercion of the state, to impose your views on others? If you are willing to do that, are you also willing to consider the costs of doing so and take responsibility for the results?

He made this point again and again in this book and throughout his life. He had to repeat and repeat it, because his interlocutors proved themselves oddly unwilling to even address it. The conservatives in this volume could write pages about the glories of Western philosophy, the need for moral absolutism, the merit of tradition, and so on, but never quite get around to that critical question: what should the state do about it?

This is where Machan’s libertarianism provided clarity. His answer is a good rule of thumb: the law only pertains where there is aggression on life and property. No, this doesn’t provide an all-encompassing answer to all life’s mysteries, and it does not guarantee specific social outcomes, but libertarianism doesn’t seek to do that. It only seeks to shift the burden of proof concerning when it is appropriate to unleash the violence of the law on people
 

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Posted: Mar 18, 2016 - 10:55am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

Sorry for stumbling in here at an inappropriate time (considering everyone is in a huff over the election) but I am still trying to get my head around what people are actually talking about (and given that I am probably going to fail at even describing my problem, I won’t be too surprised if the following long rant quickly gets buried.. c’est la vie).. Right, we currently have a situation where most if not all world economies are muddling along with some kind of welfare state based on a classic distinction between the public sector and the private sector. A full-on public sector (command economy) appears to have failed on a grand scale (the soviet model) and unbridled private enterprise also seems to go off the rails periodically, encouraging state intervention in the twin forms of regulation and rescue packages.  So most states muddle along with something in the middle.

 Yet, we currently have enormous dissatisfaction worldwide with such centrist policies as real incomes have fallen relative to the total wealth of the economy. Inequality* is at incredible levels, health services are under severe strain, and nationalist reactionaries a la Trump are enjoying new-found popularity.

 At the same time, government regulation and intervention is extreme and growing, as though it were subject to some kind of internal growth dynamic and not subject to any evolutionary checks or controls. Whether we like it or not, most decisions are not made in political forums but in backroom committees and meetings within large organizations, all of whom are subject to the rules of logic and to inputs that seem given.

My question: where in this giant web of givens, is the room for individual human freedom? Is this what libertarians are on about?  And given how entrenched these structures are, is the libertarian movement just an example of glorious naïveté?

 Or are we just spoilt kids who no longer appreciate the freedoms this giant modern economy gives us (internet chatrooms, the ability to buy coffee from some far-off country, access to doctors, education etc.) and we just don’t know how good we’ve got it? Are these two aims (1. individual freedoms (from wants, from regulation, from stinky neighbors, etc) and 2. the maximization of wealth and living standards) mutually exclusive? i.e. can this level of wealth even exist without large organizational structures like governments and giant corporations? Conversely if you need such large structures, can you have them yet still maximize individual liberties and dismantle all the rules that make them run?

 Or to put it another way, large structures require concessions on the part of the individual. Indeed, it is impossible to cut the individual’s own private wants and needs out of the larger organizational context in which the individual finds him or herself. Thus you get the clichéd government man, the corporate hack, the social worker, etc. all of which are typologies that only exist in an organizational structure. And without that context you have removed about 90% of what makes us social beings.

In my view, there aren’t too many ways out of this paradox. The first is some kind of Rousseau-ean identification with the larger organization. The individual here becomes free because his wants and ideals don’t jar with those of the larger organization (in the end this is also how Marx tried to solve the paradox by appealing to a strange thing called “class consciousness”), or you dismantle the organization’s inherent needs and wants and make them secondary to those of the individual (the current buzz words are diversity and inclusiveness) and run the risk of not getting anything done because everything gets mired in the noise and bedlam of democracy. Or you just don’t have long-standing large structures, but then you run the risk of losing the benefits of large logical structures and mass production, etc.

Now, I fully realize this is old territory that we have covered before. But I personally suspect the true course of history from here on in is already set by the structures we have in place crashing into some hard constraints. It is nice to talk about ideals like human rights and freedoms and so on but let’s not kid ourselves, history is going to pan out as a reaction to the stuff we are confronting today. The issue is, what form is that reaction going to take? A return to romantic nationalism (a la Trump), an extension of bureaucracy (a la the EU), an all embracing global village (a la TTIP), a descent into war and destruction (a la WWI and WWII)? Or will we humans just get sidelined as AI takes over production pursuing its own logic?

 

Nice post.  As I was reading it, a couple of points came to mind.  First, the regulations are meant to keep the greedy large corporations from going the off the rail, yet they seem more burden the smaller less efficient businesses...who are more directly related to the "individuals" you speak of.  One model I've seen that works (at least somewhat) in markets dominated by larger national players is the cooperative.  Specifically, in the supermarket industry it allows smaller independents to compete against larger national chains like Kroger by pooling their purchasing power, thereby giving the independent similar scale of its larger competitor.  Now, if you look at ACA (Obamacare), most of the larger companies (major drug manufacturers, wholesalers, retailers, and providers) have been singing its praise in the form of higher sales despite some margin pressure from lower reimbursement rates.  Conversely, the smaller cos., docs operating independently, appear to be struggling with the cut in rates.  Perhaps here some cooperative model would help...not only from a procurement level, but also in pooling their own risks and helping reduce their malpractice insurance...bottom line, if you can't beat the big uns, join em. 
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Posted: Mar 18, 2016 - 8:42am

What? WHAT????
sirdroseph
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Posted: Mar 11, 2016 - 6:08am

 kurtster wrote:

As stated repeatedly, my first test is all about illegal immigration and getting that fixed.  I think that Bernie and Trump are more similar.  But it gets back to this for me.  No borders, no country.  As to Hillary and Trump, I find plenty of differences.  The biggest is in foreign policy.

 
Yes, I think you answered your own question in regards to why you support Trump; tougher immigration stance is your most important issue so it does make sense for you to support him.
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Posted: Mar 11, 2016 - 6:02am

 sirdroseph wrote:

I will be honest kurt, I don't understand how anyone who considers themselves libertarian, small or large L could support Trump.  He is just another authoritarian statist with a different speaking style and hairdo.  Bernie Sanders has more Libertarian positions than Trump.  If you stick to strictly the policy issues, other than immigration Trump and Clinton are the most similar imo.

 
As stated repeatedly, my first test is all about illegal immigration and getting that fixed.  I think that Bernie and Trump are more similar.  But it gets back to this for me.  No borders, no country.  As to Hillary and Trump, I find plenty of differences.  The biggest is in foreign policy.
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Posted: Mar 11, 2016 - 5:45am

 kurtster wrote:

I guess that you are referring to me.  Yeah, I consider myself a small-L libertarian.  Fiscally conservative and socially liberal is how I have identified myself for 50 or so years.  If that qualifies as one definition of a small-L libertarian, then yes.  Otherwise how would you or anyone else define that position ?

Where does one fit into the political party spectrum with these values ?  That is if one wants to pick sides when voting for candidates that might actually win ?  

If you are seeking a logic based explanation for those who support Trump, I doubt you will find one.  If you think that someone with my values supporting Trump is inconsistent with those values, so be it.  But then again most people really don't understand how anyone who is compos mentis can support Trump.


 
I will be honest kurt, I don't understand how anyone who considers themselves libertarian, small or large L could support Trump.  He is just another authoritarian statist with a different speaking style and hairdo.  Bernie Sanders has more Libertarian positions than Trump.  If you stick to strictly the policy issues, other than immigration Trump and Clinton are the most similar imo.
Trump Rides The Wave of American Fascism

 

 

Side note; it is shocking how much FDR looks like my dad.{#Eek}




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Posted: Mar 11, 2016 - 5:39am

 R_P wrote:

Nope, sorry, still some.

Also keep in mind that our biggest regular Trump stumper here self-identifies with small-L libertarian and the "Austrian School", aside from being a big fan of Teabaggery. If they could be found with Tea, you're gonna find some with Trump.

Whether you like it or not.
 
I guess that you are referring to me.  Yeah, I consider myself a small-L libertarian.  Fiscally conservative and socially liberal is how I have identified myself for 50 or so years.  If that qualifies as one definition of a small-L libertarian, then yes.  Otherwise how would you or anyone else define that position ?

Where does one fit into the political party spectrum with these values ?  That is if one wants to pick sides when voting for candidates that might actually win ?  

If you are seeking a logic based explanation for those who support Trump, I doubt you will find one.  If you think that someone with my values supporting Trump is inconsistent with those values, so be it.  But then again most people really don't understand how anyone who is compos mentis can support Trump.

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Posted: Mar 11, 2016 - 1:16am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 R_P wrote:
Nope, sorry, still some.

Also keep in mind that our biggest regular Trump stumper here self-identifies with small-L libertarian and the "Austrian School", aside from being a big fan of Teabaggery. If they could be found with Tea, you're gonna find some with Trump.

Whether you like it or not.

PS:

Seems like a bit of a fan boy too...

Can we count Scott Adams in? He who now spends his days proclaiming the brilliance of Trump the Persuader. (Yes, not quite an endorsement yet...)

Hard to tell with Adams. He has praised Trump's deftness in manipulating the media but stopped well short of an endorsement. Can't tell if his fascination is horrified or admiring; rubbernecking drivers in traffic jams don't go around causing crashes just to have something to watch.

Molyneux is another matter. I'm only halfway thru the video so far (busy day at work, proletariat to oppress and all) and so far all he's doing is complaining about how unfair Trump's press coverage has been. Not sufficient reason to vote for somebody, but Imma let him finish before I comment.

And finally, getting beyond anecdotes, we have some poling data from two Republican primaries in the south.

The one poll that acknowledges that there are such things as libertarians (South Carolina) showed 2% of those polled self-identified as libertarian, and 51% of that 2% supporting Trump. They don't give exact figures for sample size (just "3,500+") so this may be as few as 35 people, self-selected as voting Republican. Ron Paul got 13% of the vote in South Carolina in 2012, so that 2% is probably a small portion of South Carolina's libertarians, or even its libertarian-leaning Republicans. The majority probably stayed home out of disgust.

Voting for Ron Paul is not a perfect stand-in for libertarianism I'll admit, especially in Texas where he represented several congressional districts for 23 years. He took 12% of the Texas primary in 2012. The data don't show what fraction of the electorate they polled fit into the libertarian camp (and the sample size, 645 voters, is even smaller than the South Carolina sample in a much bigger state) so it's hard to draw any conclusions from that. Of those who went to the polls this year 40% supported Trump. That leaves open the question of how many of Ron Paul's supporters even showed up, but it is troubling to see that many of them falling for Trump's shtick.

So yeah, OK, some. Still not convinced that's many, or even enough to be worth talking about.
 
Molyneux ultimately ends up doing it (as always?) for the children (in another video, easily found and/or suggested by YT). Of course he's more of the anarcho-capitalist variety as well, but I'mma gonna let myself count that.

Another one is here. Seems a young one. I came across another one just like him on YouTube. The key seems to be "pragmatism" (and thus ignoring some principles along the way) or just anti-establishmentarianism.

In the same way as Lakoff pointed out that you end up with some union members voting for Trump as well.
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Posted: Mar 10, 2016 - 2:04pm

 R_P wrote:
Nope, sorry, still some.

Also keep in mind that our biggest regular Trump stumper here self-identifies with small-L libertarian and the "Austrian School", aside from being a big fan of Teabaggery. If they could be found with Tea, you're gonna find some with Trump.

Whether you like it or not.

PS:

Seems like a bit of a fan boy too...

Can we count Scott Adams in? He who now spends his days proclaiming the brilliance of Trump the Persuader. (Yes, not quite an endorsement yet...)

Hard to tell with Adams. He has praised Trump's deftness in manipulating the media but stopped well short of an endorsement. Can't tell if his fascination is horrified or admiring; rubbernecking drivers in traffic jams don't go around causing crashes just to have something to watch.

Molyneux is another matter. I'm only halfway thru the video so far (busy day at work, proletariat to oppress and all) and so far all he's doing is complaining about how unfair Trump's press coverage has been. Not sufficient reason to vote for somebody, but Imma let him finish before I comment.

And finally, getting beyond anecdotes, we have some poling data from two Republican primaries in the south.

The one poll that acknowledges that there are such things as libertarians (South Carolina) showed 2% of those polled self-identified as libertarian, and 51% of that 2% supporting Trump. They don't give exact figures for sample size (just "3,500+") so this may be as few as 35 people, self-selected as voting Republican. Ron Paul got 13% of the vote in South Carolina in 2012, so that 2% is probably a small portion of South Carolina's libertarians, or even its libertarian-leaning Republicans. The majority probably stayed home out of disgust.

Voting for Ron Paul is not a perfect stand-in for libertarianism I'll admit, especially in Texas where he represented several congressional districts for 23 years. He took 12% of the Texas primary in 2012. The data don't show what fraction of the electorate they polled fit into the libertarian camp (and the sample size, 645 voters, is even smaller than the South Carolina sample in a much bigger state) so it's hard to draw any conclusions from that. Of those who went to the polls this year 40% supported Trump. That leaves open the question of how many of Ron Paul's supporters even showed up, but it is troubling to see that many of them falling for Trump's shtick.

So yeah, OK, some. Still not convinced that's many, or even enough to be worth talking about.


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Posted: Mar 10, 2016 - 10:54am

 oldviolin wrote:

Believe me when I tell you that you are always one of the most open and thoughtful posters in here. {#Good-vibes}

It is a paradox isn't it?
The desire for fresh life giving oxygen juxtaposed with the machinery generating the same old stale and depleted air. {#Mad} And to think, I'm an optimist of the first sort, first meaning last.{#Think} So much opportunity, so little reason.

The face of God lines our collective brow, not our collective pockets. Anyone suggesting otherwise is watching the wrong signs; the ones made for public consumption and strife. If I were to call myself a Libertarian it would be because I'm fundamentally idealistic. That's not odd because unlike Democrats and Republicans the platform promises nothing outside of the fruits of common sense and logical reasoning. In effect, Liberty. Freedom. It requires a level of trust that is otherwise heretofore unrealized. A living breathing free society requires that to survive. Still I'm drawn to that naturally because I am also a believer in the substance of faith of the first sort and otherwise empty rhetoric is not that appealing. It's not so much a contradiction. I like everyone else in this world will fall where I stood last. Everybody's gotta learn sometime. Simplistic yes, but so is anything destined for longevity, like the proof of a future for free beings, living for each other like each day could be their last. That is ever a distinct possibility.

/redundancy {#Wink}

 
I think you and I think very much alike on many fronts
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Posted: Mar 10, 2016 - 10:46am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

Ok I'll try to say it in five words or less. 

um
shit
i
dunno
either

That's the basic paragraph structure.  I might need to swap them around a bit.  

 
Believe me when I tell you that you are always one of the most open and thoughtful posters in here. {#Good-vibes}

It is a paradox isn't it?
The desire for fresh life giving oxygen juxtaposed with the machinery generating the same old stale and depleted air. {#Mad} And to think, I'm an optimist of the first sort, first meaning last.{#Think} So much opportunity, so little reason.

The face of God lines our collective brow, not our collective pockets. Anyone suggesting otherwise is watching the wrong signs; the ones made for public consumption and strife. If I were to call myself a Libertarian it would be because I'm fundamentally idealistic. That's not odd because unlike Democrats and Republicans the platform promises nothing outside of the fruits of common sense and logical reasoning. In effect, Liberty. Freedom. It requires a level of trust that is otherwise heretofore unrealized. A living breathing free society requires that to survive. Still I'm drawn to that naturally because I am also a believer in the substance of faith of the first sort and otherwise empty rhetoric is not that appealing. It's not so much a contradiction. I like everyone else in this world will fall where I stood last. Everybody's gotta learn sometime. Simplistic yes, but so is anything destined for longevity, like the proof of a future for free beings, living for each other like each day could be their last. That is ever a distinct possibility.

/redundancy {#Wink}


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Posted: Mar 10, 2016 - 10:08am

 oldviolin wrote:

"Klaatu barada nikto"

 
Ok I'll try to say it in five words or less. 

um
shit
i
dunno
either

That's the basic paragraph structure.  I might need to swap them around a bit.  
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Posted: Mar 10, 2016 - 6:27am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

Sorry for stumbling in here at an inappropriate time (considering everyone is in a huff over the election) but I am still trying to get my head around what people are actually talking about (and given that I am probably going to fail at even describing my problem, I won’t be too surprised if the following long rant quickly gets buried.. c’est la vie).. Right, we currently have a situation where most if not all world economies are muddling along with some kind of welfare state based on a classic distinction between the public sector and the private sector. A full-on public sector (command economy) appears to have failed on a grand scale (the soviet model) and unbridled private enterprise also seems to go off the rails periodically, encouraging state intervention in the twin forms of regulation and rescue packages.  So most states muddle along with something in the middle.

 Yet, we currently have enormous dissatisfaction worldwide with such centrist policies as real incomes have fallen relative to the total wealth of the economy. Inequality* is at incredible levels, health services are under severe strain, and nationalist reactionaries a la Trump are enjoying new-found popularity.

 At the same time, government regulation and intervention is extreme and growing, as though it were subject to some kind of internal growth dynamic and not subject to any evolutionary checks or controls. Whether we like it or not, most decisions are not made in political forums but in backroom committees and meetings within large organizations, all of whom are subject to the rules of logic and to inputs that seem given.

My question: where in this giant web of givens, is the room for individual human freedom? Is this what libertarians are on about?  And given how entrenched these structures are, is the libertarian movement just an example of glorious naïveté?

 Or are we just spoilt kids who no longer appreciate the freedoms this giant modern economy gives us (internet chatrooms, the ability to buy coffee from some far-off country, access to doctors, education etc.) and we just don’t know how good we’ve got it? Are these two aims (1. individual freedoms (from wants, from regulation, from stinky neighbors, etc) and 2. the maximization of wealth and living standards) mutually exclusive? i.e. can this level of wealth even exist without large organizational structures like governments and giant corporations? Conversely if you need such large structures, can you have them yet still maximize individual liberties and dismantle all the rules that make them run?

 Or to put it another way, large structures require concessions on the part of the individual. Indeed, it is impossible to cut the individual’s own private wants and needs out of the larger organizational context in which the individual finds him or herself. Thus you get the clichéd government man, the corporate hack, the social worker, etc. all of which are typologies that only exist in an organizational structure. And without that context you have removed about 90% of what makes us social beings.

In my view, there aren’t too many ways out of this paradox. The first is some kind of Rousseau-ean identification with the larger organization. The individual here becomes free because his wants and ideals don’t jar with those of the larger organization (in the end this is also how Marx tried to solve the paradox by appealing to a strange thing called “class consciousness”), or you dismantle the organization’s inherent needs and wants and make them secondary to those of the individual (the current buzz words are diversity and inclusiveness) and run the risk of not getting anything done because everything gets mired in the noise and bedlam of democracy. Or you just don’t have long-standing large structures, but then you run the risk of losing the benefits of large logical structures and mass production, etc.

Now, I fully realize this is old territory that we have covered before. But I personally suspect the true course of history from here on in is already set by the structures we have in place crashing into some hard constraints. It is nice to talk about ideals like human rights and freedoms and so on but let’s not kid ourselves, history is going to pan out as a reaction to the stuff we are confronting today. The issue is, what form is that reaction going to take? A return to romantic nationalism (a la Trump), an extension of bureaucracy (a la the EU), an all embracing global village (a la TTIP), a descent into war and destruction (a la WWI and WWII)? Or will we humans just get sidelined as AI takes over production pursuing its own logic?

 

 



 
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NoEnzLefttoSplit
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Posted: Mar 10, 2016 - 1:44am

Sorry for stumbling in here at an inappropriate time (considering everyone is in a huff over the election) but I am still trying to get my head around what people are actually talking about (and given that I am probably going to fail at even describing my problem, I won’t be too surprised if the following long rant quickly gets buried.. c’est la vie).. Right, we currently have a situation where most if not all world economies are muddling along with some kind of welfare state based on a classic distinction between the public sector and the private sector. A full-on public sector (command economy) appears to have failed on a grand scale (the soviet model) and unbridled private enterprise also seems to go off the rails periodically, encouraging state intervention in the twin forms of regulation and rescue packages.  So most states muddle along with something in the middle.

 Yet, we currently have enormous dissatisfaction worldwide with such centrist policies as real incomes have fallen relative to the total wealth of the economy. Inequality* is at incredible levels, health services are under severe strain, and nationalist reactionaries a la Trump are enjoying new-found popularity.

 At the same time, government regulation and intervention is extreme and growing, as though it were subject to some kind of internal growth dynamic and not subject to any evolutionary checks or controls. Whether we like it or not, most decisions are not made in political forums but in backroom committees and meetings within large organizations, all of whom are subject to the rules of logic and to inputs that seem given.

My question: where in this giant web of givens, is the room for individual human freedom? Is this what libertarians are on about?  And given how entrenched these structures are, is the libertarian movement just an example of glorious naïveté?

 Or are we just spoilt kids who no longer appreciate the freedoms this giant modern economy gives us (internet chatrooms, the ability to buy coffee from some far-off country, access to doctors, education etc.) and we just don’t know how good we’ve got it? Are these two aims (1. individual freedoms (from wants, from regulation, from stinky neighbors, etc) and 2. the maximization of wealth and living standards) mutually exclusive? i.e. can this level of wealth even exist without large organizational structures like governments and giant corporations? Conversely if you need such large structures, can you have them yet still maximize individual liberties and dismantle all the rules that make them run?

 Or to put it another way, large structures require concessions on the part of the individual. Indeed, it is impossible to cut the individual’s own private wants and needs out of the larger organizational context in which the individual finds him or herself. Thus you get the clichéd government man, the corporate hack, the social worker, etc. all of which are typologies that only exist in an organizational structure. And without that context you have removed about 90% of what makes us social beings.

In my view, there aren’t too many ways out of this paradox. The first is some kind of Rousseau-ean identification with the larger organization. The individual here becomes free because his wants and ideals don’t jar with those of the larger organization (in the end this is also how Marx tried to solve the paradox by appealing to a strange thing called “class consciousness”), or you dismantle the organization’s inherent needs and wants and make them secondary to those of the individual (the current buzz words are diversity and inclusiveness) and run the risk of not getting anything done because everything gets mired in the noise and bedlam of democracy. Or you just don’t have long-standing large structures, but then you run the risk of losing the benefits of large logical structures and mass production, etc.

Now, I fully realize this is old territory that we have covered before. But I personally suspect the true course of history from here on in is already set by the structures we have in place crashing into some hard constraints. It is nice to talk about ideals like human rights and freedoms and so on but let’s not kid ourselves, history is going to pan out as a reaction to the stuff we are confronting today. The issue is, what form is that reaction going to take? A return to romantic nationalism (a la Trump), an extension of bureaucracy (a la the EU), an all embracing global village (a la TTIP), a descent into war and destruction (a la WWI and WWII)? Or will we humans just get sidelined as AI takes over production pursuing its own logic?

 

 


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