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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » Oklahoma Questions and Points of Interest Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 36, 37, 38  Next
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miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 8, 2016 - 6:15am

 ScottN wrote:
I suppose the Oklahoma's recent earthquake numbers could be unrelated to fracking.  Hey, could be.

Probably a geologic coincidence also for Alberta

Arkansas

Texas

Ohio & Pennsylvania

When fracking may not be directly responsible, can it be related?

There is a great deal of data (some may actually be facts) out there. Sides will choose data based on the usefulness to their interests. Most claim "scientific basis".  Cause and effect?  Perhaps not yet fully determined and/or fully understood in detail.  What is known is the rising coincidence of small earthquakes with the use of hydraulic fracturing in oil extraction.  However, Montana seems to have been largely spared, so far.

 
imho yes, if you include waste water injection as part of the process and liability coverage

after glancing at this thread...

if we know that water (waste or otherwise) injection technology can expedite energy release in the crust

the question of who is responsible for the property damage when it happens comes up

this should be hammered out contractually between the two parties (esp the liability insurer) before the first injection

promises can leave a lot to be desired, well defined contracts (no pun intended) are better

responsible insurance companies on the hook will do their underwriting/risk assessment so to speak before the claim, not after

of course who negotiates such details matters a lot too

regards

Red_Dragon
y ddraig goch ddyry gychwyn
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Location: Rethuglican Jesusland


Posted: Jan 7, 2016 - 10:18am

NYSE delists SandRidge stock after price hits 15 cents a share

SandRidge is also being sued by the Oklahoma Corporation Commission for refusing to shut-in several disposal wells linked to earthquakes.

Also, USGS Seismologist Says Edmond Earthquake Reactivated Fault

...whee! 
Lazy8
human
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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 7, 2016 - 9:43am

 Red_Dragon wrote:
careful, you could knock something out of alignment

You do have that deer-in-the-headlights look.

Wait, it's Oklahoma. Deer-in-the-jacklight then.
Red_Dragon
y ddraig goch ddyry gychwyn
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Location: Rethuglican Jesusland


Posted: Jan 7, 2016 - 9:39am

 islander wrote:

Every weekend in Chicago...

 
careful, you could knock something out of alignment
islander
Dog is my copilot
islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: Jan 7, 2016 - 9:31am

 Red_Dragon wrote:
15 earthquakes 3.0 or greater in the past 24 hours. 

 
Every weekend in Chicago...
Red_Dragon
y ddraig goch ddyry gychwyn
Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Rethuglican Jesusland


Posted: Jan 7, 2016 - 7:28am

15 earthquakes 3.0 or greater in the past 24 hours. 
Red_Dragon
y ddraig goch ddyry gychwyn
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Location: Rethuglican Jesusland


Posted: Jan 6, 2016 - 10:25am

hurray!
Red_Dragon
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Location: Rethuglican Jesusland


Posted: Jan 4, 2016 - 10:08am

Thanks, Mary!
Lazy8
human
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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 2, 2016 - 1:50pm

 islander wrote:
I think you two are talking past each other. But L8, your semantics look really odd. Sure, fracking isn't the "cause" of the earthquakes - that is geologic and all. But you yourself said "triggered" which is what everyone else is also saying. There are certainly a lot more earthquakes since fracking started in larger scale than before, and Oklahoma was never really a quake prone area. So I think it's a pretty minor difference to say earthquakes are being triggered by fracking vs. caused by fracking. 

We will probably eventually have an earthquake in Oklahoma, but we had 500+ that were 3.0 or greater 2014, vs. ~100 the previous year (also well above the historical average). Oklahoma now has more frequent earthquakes that California. Doesn't that seem odd to you?

Yes, there are more of them. They're also very, very small and they were going to happen anyway. Probably not spread out over time, but all at once. In this sense no, triggered and caused by are very different: caused by means if we didn't reinject wastewater we wouldn't have earthquakes.

We need to dispose of well waste water. Reinjecting it works—the water goes back where it came from (deep in the earth) and stays out of the water table. The side effects are minor—if your house is in danger from a 3-4 earthquake you'd better not slam any doors.
buzz
banjaxed
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Location: up the boohai
Zodiac: Aquarius
Chinese Yr: Rat


Posted: Jan 2, 2016 - 11:50am

 islander wrote:

Is there a schedule for that? Probably worth a sticker on the calendar

 
i was thinking party{#Cheers}


islander
Dog is my copilot
islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: Jan 2, 2016 - 11:38am

 buzz wrote:
maybe 2016 will be the year the earth opens up and swallows all the oklahomoids.

 
Is there a schedule for that? Probably worth a sticker on the calendar. 
RichardPrins
Ni dieu ni maître
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Posted: Jan 2, 2016 - 11:36am

Man-Made Earthquakes Update | Science Features (2014)

Anthropogenic earthquakes overview...
buzz
banjaxed
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Location: up the boohai
Zodiac: Aquarius
Chinese Yr: Rat


Posted: Jan 2, 2016 - 11:33am

maybe 2016 will be the year the earth opens up and swallows all the oklahomoids.
islander
Dog is my copilot
islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: Jan 2, 2016 - 11:27am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 Red_Dragon wrote:
Exactly.

I can see I'm not getting thru. Let me try again.

Earthquakes release lots of energy. That energy has to come from somewhere. It doesn't come from the injection wells, they can't supply enough. The energy is stored in the rocks as stress caused by large masses trying to move that are restrained by friction along fault lines.

Once that energy is released it's not there anymore. The rocks still have stresses, but they aren't enough to overcome the friction along the faults or they would have already.

An injection well isn't going to induce an infinite number of earthquakes. No stress, no earthquake—as the tens of thousands of injection wells all over the planet that aren't inducing earthquakes demonstrate.

Let's say we stop reinjecting well wastewater tomorrow. We'll still have earthquakes because the earth's tectonic plates will keep moving and friction along faults will keep resisting that motion. Once the stresses build up high enough they will move, and that motion will be more violent because greater friction allows greater stresses to build up.

It's not like the earth is perfectly static and the existing friction along faults will hold forever unless we intervene. The earth is in constant (if imperceptible) motion, and some day those faults will slip. They have to, or they wouldn't be there—they are both evidence for and the pathway of that slip in the past.

 
I think you two are talking past each other. But L8, your semantics look really odd. Sure, fracking isn't the "cause" of the earthquakes - that is geologic and all. But you yourself said "triggered" which is what everyone else is also saying. There are certainly a lot more earthquakes since fracking started in larger scale than before, and Oklahoma was never really a quake prone area. So I think it's a pretty minor difference to say earthquakes are being triggered by fracking vs. caused by fracking. 

We will probably eventually have an earthquake in Oklahoma, but we had 500+ that were 3.0 or greater 2014, vs. ~100 the previous year (also well above the historical average). Oklahoma now has more frequent earthquakes that California. Doesn't that seem odd to you?
ScottN
"Thought for today" has been postponed until tomorrow.
ScottN Avatar

Location: An inch above the K/T boundary. But smth near fracking still has appeal.
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Aries
Chinese Yr: Buffalo


Posted: Jan 2, 2016 - 11:14am

I suppose the Oklahoma's recent earthquake numbers could be unrelated to fracking.  Hey, could be.

Probably a geologic coincidence also for Alberta

Arkansas

Texas

Ohio & Pennsylvania

When fracking may not be directly responsible, can it be related?

There is a great deal of data (some may actually be facts) out there. Sides will choose data based on the usefulness to their interests. Most claim "scientific basis".  Cause and effect?  Perhaps not yet fully determined and/or fully understood in detail.  What is known is the rising coincidence of small earthquakes with the use of hydraulic fracturing in oil extraction.  However, Montana seems to have been largely spared, so far.


Red_Dragon
y ddraig goch ddyry gychwyn
Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Rethuglican Jesusland


Posted: Jan 2, 2016 - 10:34am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 Red_Dragon wrote:
Exactly.

I can see I'm not getting thru. Let me try again.

Earthquakes release lots of energy. That energy has to come from somewhere. It doesn't come from the injection wells, they can't supply enough. The energy is stored in the rocks as stress caused by large masses trying to move that are restrained by friction along fault lines.

Once that energy is released it's not there anymore. The rocks still have stresses, but they aren't enough to overcome the friction along the faults or they would have already.

An injection well isn't going to induce an infinite number of earthquakes. No stress, no earthquake—as the tens of thousands of injection wells all over the planet that aren't inducing earthquakes demonstrate.

Let's say we stop reinjecting well wastewater tomorrow. We'll still have earthquakes because the earth's tectonic plates will keep moving and friction along faults will keep resisting that motion. Once the stresses build up high enough they will move, and that motion will be more violent because greater friction allows greater stresses to build up.

It's not like the earth is perfectly static and the existing friction along faults will hold forever unless we intervene. The earth is in constant (if imperceptible) motion, and some day those faults will slip. They have to, or they wouldn't be there—they are both evidence for and the pathway of that slip in the past.

 
Injection wells create conditions that make earthquakes more likely and common. You're putting fluid in a place fluid hasn't been and creating a slippery situation. Yes, those rocks would have slipped eventually, when the force overcame the friction holding them in place. Fluid injection is accelerating the process. To say that injection doesn't "cause" earthquakes is an exercise in hair-splitting, don'tcha think? Yes, my house will eventually collapse, but if I drive a bulldozer through it it will collapse a lot sooner than if I didn't.
Lazy8
human
Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 2, 2016 - 10:16am

 Red_Dragon wrote:
Exactly.

I can see I'm not getting thru. Let me try again.

Earthquakes release lots of energy. That energy has to come from somewhere. It doesn't come from the injection wells, they can't supply enough. The energy is stored in the rocks as stress caused by large masses trying to move that are restrained by friction along fault lines.

Once that energy is released it's not there anymore. The rocks still have stresses, but they aren't enough to overcome the friction along the faults or they would have already.

An injection well isn't going to induce an infinite number of earthquakes. No stress, no earthquake—as the tens of thousands of injection wells all over the planet that aren't inducing earthquakes demonstrate.

Let's say we stop reinjecting well wastewater tomorrow. We'll still have earthquakes because the earth's tectonic plates will keep moving and friction along faults will keep resisting that motion. Once the stresses build up high enough they will move, and that motion will be more violent because greater friction allows greater stresses to build up.

It's not like the earth is perfectly static and the existing friction along faults will hold forever unless we intervene. The earth is in constant (if imperceptible) motion, and some day those faults will slip. They have to, or they wouldn't be there—they are both evidence for and the pathway of that slip in the past.


Red_Dragon
y ddraig goch ddyry gychwyn
Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Rethuglican Jesusland


Posted: Jan 2, 2016 - 7:24am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 

From the USGS site FAQs:

How does the injection of wastewater at depth cause earthquakes?

Earth's crust is pervasively fractured at depth by faults. These faults can sustain high stresses without slipping because natural "tectonic" stress and the weight of the overlying rock pushes the opposing fault blocks together, increasing the frictional resistance to fault slip. The injected wastewater counteracts the frictional forces on faults and, in effect, "pries them apart", thereby facilitating earthquake slip.


Exactly.

 


Lazy8
human
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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 1, 2016 - 7:33pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:
Yeah, okay. I'm gonna go with the scientists at the USGS on this. 

From the USGS site FAQs:

How does the injection of wastewater at depth cause earthquakes?

Earth's crust is pervasively fractured at depth by faults. These faults can sustain high stresses without slipping because natural "tectonic" stress and the weight of the overlying rock pushes the opposing fault blocks together, increasing the frictional resistance to fault slip. The injected wastewater counteracts the frictional forces on faults and, in effect, "pries them apart", thereby facilitating earthquake slip.


Further reading on energy release in earthquakes.
Red_Dragon
y ddraig goch ddyry gychwyn
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Location: Rethuglican Jesusland


Posted: Jan 1, 2016 - 1:14pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
 

OK, time for some science.

Injection wells don't cause earthquakes. They can't. Earthquakes, even tiny ones, release vastly more energy than an injection well—or a whole field of them—could ever supply. The shifting (and stresses resulting from restrained shifting) of tectonic plates along faults causes earthquakes.

It's sort of like an avalanche. A small event (a skier of a tree dumping a branch's worth of snow, say) may trigger one, but it was bound to happen sooner or later. The avalanche is not the skier's (or the tree's) fault. If the skier hadn't come along the energy represented by all that piled snow would have eventually found a release, and the longer it waited the more energy there would likely have been.

This isn't a newly discovered phenomenon. There was a plan back in the 70s to inject fluids into fault zones to release some of that stored energy a little at a time, to have a series of small earthquakes spread out over time rather than one big one all at once. The plan got squashed by the legal liability involved; even a small earthquake can cause significant damage. And "small" is, geologically speaking, a relative term. We don't know how much energy is stored up along fault zones and we don't know how much will be released in any particular event.

But how hard would it be to find a jury of scientifically-illiterate people with short attention spans to blame whoever let that energy loose? That's a rhetorical question of course—the trial would likely have been in California. But even here how many people read to the end of this post? How many of those really grasped what I'm trying to get across? Now imagine that the people on trial are people you already reflexively hate. Yeah, not gonna go well.

So sooner or later the ignorance and superstition that blames fracking for poisoning wells and making water flammable will blame underground activity for earthquakes. I mean, if they haven't gotten around to it already.

 
Yeah, okay. I'm gonna go with the scientists at the USGS on this.
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