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kurtster
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Location: counting flowers on the wall ...
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Zodiac: Libra
Chinese Yr: Dragon


Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 7:23pm

 steeler wrote:
 
I remind you that it was you who claimed to know my political views, not me that claimed to know yours. 

Your experiences are unique to you as are mine to me.  Everyone has experiences, and those experiences influence their thinking. In that regard, you are not unique.  And you do not know anymore about any of them than they do about you.  

I do not think in the context of North and South, unless we are talking about the Civil War or maybe the Civil Rights Movement, circa 1960s.

By the way, I  lived in California before the Summer of Love in 1967. 

Finally, an anecdote on how some in the West view Washington, DC:

I was vacationing in Montana 10-15 years ago, and it was during a time when federal government was repopulating Grizzly bears into parts of Idaho and western Montana.  I ended up talking to a guy who owned the campgrounds at which I was staying, which included a lodge and hot spring.  Anyway, talking to him over a beer, and he was railing against this project.  He did not want the return of the Grizzlies into his backyard.  And he resented that the feds were doing it. Finally, he asked me whether I knew why the feds were doing this because he did.  That got my interest, so I asked him to expound.  "They're trying to take our land," he said.  The Grizzlies would drive some people off was his reasoning, leaving the land for the taking.  I thought: Under that reasoning, they should let Grizzlies loose in Lower Manhattan.                
 

    

 
Hmmmmm.

I did state that our views are diametrically opposed.  That is more based on knowing that very few people share my views as a whole except for the cohort I grew up with in California.  That was reinforced the past couple of years attending our 40th HS reunions a year apart..  It was one of the few times I have been with people who I could discuss the ways things have been going in this country with the other parties basically finishing sentences someone else started.  Its been decades since I have been anywhere where I felt understood and didn't have to explain references and backgrounds just to be understood when speaking broadly. and I was not alone with this feeling.  Sure this can be a common theme among any cohort.  But generally speaking, no one in the rest of the country was experiencing what was happening in California, until a decade or more later.  The way I have described moving back east in the winter of 68 and landing in Philly, was like going backwards in time some 10 to 15 years and finding an incomprehensible culture at every level.  And moving to Cleveland in 71, less than a year after the shootings at Kent State a mere 10 miles down the road from where I moved (and once again where I live now), I still had the same feeling. 

Going to school in Melbourne, Fla at the school where javanagila is a radio personality in between living in Philly and Cleveland, was a little bit closer to what I was accustomned to, but being a hop, skip and a jump from Cape Canaveral and all it encompaased, sure had an affect locally.  It was a cutting edge location in many regards.

You're correct that I don't know the experiences of your cohort either.  One thing that I did notice is that you haven't come up with anything that we have agreed upon politically, over the years.  We have discussed many topics, including the Steelers and Raiders, and a little bit about life in SW Pa. 

What was you experience moving to California from back east like back in the mid 60's ?  How long did you live there ?  I am genuinely interested.  Was there any culture shock for you ?  Were you in an active military area such as Orange county ?  Or political hotbed like Berkeley ?  The differences between the SF bay area and SoCal were like night and day, but in the same cultural time zone.  Then there was Bakersfield, too.

California is a very unique place on earth.  All known climates can be found in one place.  From below sea level deserts to arctic conditions and tropical environments all within a days drive of each other.  California, in the 60's was recognized as the 5th largest stand alone economy in the world.  What I see there now when I return home from time to time is unrecognizable, except west of PCH, which isn't a very large swath of land in most places.

Love the Grizzly Bear story, BTW.



 

Anyone else think that Plant and Krause ripped off the Youngbloods besides me ?


islander
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Location: Seattle
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 2:31pm

 kurtster wrote:
We have generally always looked back east as the home of the evil far away disconnected District of Columbia and all those evil politicians that only want to screw up the west and exploit our resources and use the land as they see fit as opposed to the ways of the people that actually live there and manage the land in ways that work best for the people who live there.  Yankee go home was not just said in the South, I assure you.
 
There are many along the east coast who think that California is evil incarnate. They think that Hollywood is the mechanism by which the socialist liberal cadre is going to indoctrinate their children to marijuana and homosexual encounters. They believe the Californians are simply out to spread their hippie ways as they see fit, opposed to letting the proper social classes establish the bounds of decorum and the limits of with whom we associate. "Hippie get off my lawn" was not just said at Harvard, I assure you.

But if they called you evil incarnate and refused to listen to you (and your hippie friends camping on their lawn), You wouldn't expect to have any kind of meaningful discussion with them. And the idea of compromising with them to reach a mutually beneficial goal would be offensive to you, because they called you evil.  
ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints.
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Location: Powell
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Zodiac: Pisces
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Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 2:27pm

 steeler wrote:
 
Under that reasoning, they should let Grizzlies loose in Lower Manhattan.                

 

steeler
About three bricks shy of a load
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Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 2:17pm

 bokey wrote:

Well they can't let them loose in DC,the pitbulls would kill them.

 

{#Lol}
bokey
Bokey
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Location: All Mytrialsland
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Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 2:12pm

 steeler wrote:
 
I remind you that it was you who claimed to know my political views, not me that claimed to know yours. 

Your experiences are unique to you as are mine to me.  Everyone has experiences, and those experiences influence their thinking. In that regard, you are not unique.  And you do not know anymore about any of them than they do about you.  

I do not think in the context of North and South, unless we are talking about the Civil War or maybe the Civil Rights Movement, circa 1960s.

By the way, I  lived in California before the Summer of Love in 1967. 

Finally, an anecdote on how some in the West view Washington, DC:

I was vacationing in Montana 10-15 years ago, and it was during a time when federal government was repopulating Grizzly bears into parts of Idaho and western Montana.  I ended up talking to a guy who owned the campgrounds at which I was staying, which included a lodge and hot spring.  Anyway, talking to him over a beer, and he was railing against this project.  He did not want the return of the Grizzlies into his backyard.  And he resented that the feds were doing it. Finally, he asked me whether I knew why the feds were doing this because he did.  That got my interest, so I asked him to expound.  "They're trying to take our land," he said.  The Grizzlies would drive some people off was his reasoning, leaving the land for the taking.  I thought: Under that reasoning, they should let Grizzlies loose in Lower Manhattan.                
 

    

 
Well they can't let them loose in DC,the pitbulls would kill them.


steeler
About three bricks shy of a load
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Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 2:04pm

 kurtster wrote:

I have said openly that Romney sucks, and IMO Obama sucks more.

I am still a Democrat and identified myself as such when I went to work at the Romney headquarters in Kent, Ohio this week.  It was greeted with puzzlement, but I was welcomed aboard and my help was accepted and appreciated.

Obama IMO has highjacked the Party and needs to be turned out of office, again, IMO.  Adding reasons and explanations at this point is futile and unnecessary.  Opinions and feelings do not require reasons. 

But we have a major difference that explains my views in ways that are very difficult for Easterners to understand.  I am a Westerner, by birth, virtue, nature and state of mind.  I look at the country in two ways primarily, East of the Rockies and West of the Rockies.  Easterners only see North and South and somehow include the West with the North.  The West that I come from is all but gone and only a memory in people like me.  This is a not so gross oversimplification, but one nonetheless.  The West is a third point of view not generally recognized nor understood by Easterners.  We have generally always looked back east as the home of the evil far away disconnected District of Columbia and all those evil politicians that only want to screw up the west and exploit our resources and use the land as they see fit as opposed to the ways of the people that actually live there and manage the land in ways that work best for the people who live there.  Yankee go home was not just said in the South, I assure you.

This is the gap that I doubt that we will ever bridge.  Unless you were there before the invasion started in 1967 after the Summer of Love, I find that it would be very hard for anyone to understand what the west was really about.  Most of the history books found in schools are written with an eastern slant.  Similar to how the history of the Indians are told by eastern whitemen in our texts.  Our California State history texts were not written with that slant.  The slant was of local origin.  I'm not talking about US History, I'm speaking of California History which almost predates Eastern History and has totally different influences.

The Old West does still lives on to certain degrees in places like Montana and Wyoming to name a couple, but it is being challenged there too, if I might take the liberty to suggest that notion.  As long as you think of me politically in the context of North and South, you cannot understand me.

  
I remind you that it was you who claimed to know my political views, not me that claimed to know yours. 

Your experiences are unique to you as are mine to me.  Everyone has experiences, and those experiences influence their thinking. In that regard, you are not unique.  And you do not know anymore about any of them than they do about you.  

I do not think in the context of North and South, unless we are talking about the Civil War or maybe the Civil Rights Movement, circa 1960s.

By the way, I  lived in California before the Summer of Love in 1967. 

Finally, an anecdote on how some in the West view Washington, DC:

I was vacationing in Montana 10-15 years ago, and it was during a time when federal government was repopulating Grizzly bears into parts of Idaho and western Montana.  I ended up talking to a guy who owned the campgrounds at which I was staying, which included a lodge and hot spring.  Anyway, talking to him over a beer, and he was railing against this project.  He did not want the return of the Grizzlies into his backyard.  And he resented that the feds were doing it. Finally, he asked me whether I knew why the feds were doing this because he did.  That got my interest, so I asked him to expound.  "They're trying to take our land," he said.  The Grizzlies would drive some people off was his reasoning, leaving the land for the taking.  I thought: Under that reasoning, they should let Grizzlies loose in Lower Manhattan.                
 

    


bokey
Bokey
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Location: All Mytrialsland
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 9:27am

Dennis Miller: I hope a KICKED ASS is covered under obamacare {#Lol}
jagdriver
And my friends are all aboard
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Location: Just a nod and a wink south of Paradise
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Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 9:19am


Red_Dragon
y ddraig goch ddyry gychwyn
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Location: Redneck Nation


Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 8:33am

 islander wrote:

We've also done some pretty amazing things as a species. Improved our standard of living, increased our live spans, built huge systems for war and then used them for humanitarian response when needed. 
 
You say that as if it's all good.
sirdroseph
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Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 7:53am

 bokey wrote:


My favorite is Genesis 1:29 - And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed.

 If I ever get busted for smoking a doob I'm going to claim religious freedom.

 I believe God overrules some fat turd in a suit.

 

Already being done in California of course. There are actually churches that claim religious freedom to be able to smoke during services, saw it on a documentary and that was the bible quote the pot preacher quoted.{#Lol}
Red_Dragon
y ddraig goch ddyry gychwyn
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Location: Redneck Nation


Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 7:43am

 islander wrote:

If those rights are violated, then they should file a grievance with the one who granted those rights. I have yet to see anyone successfully get any recompense.

 

 
humanist.
islander
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Location: Seattle
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Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 7:37am

 oldslabsides wrote:

We consider ourselves superior to the other inhabitents of the planet.  Yet, do their disagreements escalate (or even have the potential to escalate) into massive conflicts involving millions and destroying vast tracts of their environment?  Not to mention create a host of lesser restrictions on various groups within the species.  Seems our abstract concepts of rights and property cause a lot more problems than they solve.

Just thinking out loud.

 
We've also done some pretty amazing things as a species. Improved our standard of living, increased our live spans, built huge systems for war and then used them for humanitarian response when needed. 

Sure we're not perfect, but I'd rather be one of us than a gopher.  4 legs good, 2 legs bad didn't pan out so well either. 
islander
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Location: Seattle
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Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 7:25am

 oldslabsides wrote:

In the Christian world anyway, "God" did in his "holy book" - something about having dominion over all the beasts and fouls and fishes and whatnot.

I think most of it is just the pride and ego that come with out big brains and opposable thumbs.

Even justice is an abstract concept created by us.

 
If those rights are violated, then they should file a grievance with the one who granted those rights. I have yet to see anyone successfully get any recompense.

 
bokey
Bokey
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Location: All Mytrialsland
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Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 7:24am

 oldslabsides wrote:

In the Christian world anyway, "God" did in his "holy book" - something about having dominion over all the beasts and fouls and fishes and whatnot.

I think most of it is just the pride and ego that come with out big brains and opposable thumbs.

Even justice is an abstract concept created by us.

 

My favorite is Genesis 1:29 - And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed.

 If I ever get busted for smoking a doob I'm going to claim religious freedom.

 I believe God overrules some fat turd in a suit.
Red_Dragon
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Location: Redneck Nation


Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 7:09am

 steeler wrote:


Indeed. It is infinitely more complex than it might appear, or as it is often stated. And it becomes even more complex as the world itself becomes more densely populated. Concepts that had seem hardwired change as distances — geographically and culturally — evaporate. New paradigms are necessary.  At its root, though, we are talking about a system of governance.  

And, as you point out, we talk of inalienable human rights. I guess it is a given that other species do not have rights, or that those rights are subordinate to human rights. Who ordained that?  Or is it just that we humans are in a position to impose our will, so that power, alone, justifies us doing so?  The legal area of animal rights has grown in very recent times. Still nascent, but it was nonexistent not too long ago.  (Most U.S. jurisdictions, for example, have animal cruelty offenses).  Is this just folly?  Or have concepts of justice and rights changed?

As I said in my first post, these concepts have evolved, and they continue to evolve.  It is not static.  In my opinion, this is as it should be. The struggle for justice is a constant. 

       

 
In the Christian world anyway, "God" did in his "holy book" - something about having dominion over all the beasts and fouls and fishes and whatnot.

I think most of it is just the pride and ego that come with out big brains and opposable thumbs.

Even justice is an abstract concept created by us.
steeler
About three bricks shy of a load
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Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 7:00am

 oldslabsides wrote:

We consider ourselves superior to the other inhabitents of the planet.  Yet, do their disagreements escalate (or even have the potential to escalate) into massive conflicts involving millions and destroying vast tracts of their environment?  Not to mention create a host of lesser restrictions on various groups within the species.  Seems our abstract concepts of rights and property cause a lot more problems than they solve.

Just thinking out loud.

 

Indeed. It is infinitely more complex than it might appear, or as it is often stated. And it becomes even more complex as the world itself becomes more densely populated. Concepts that had seem hardwired change as distances — geographically and culturally — evaporate. New paradigms are necessary.  At its root, though, we are talking about a system of governance.  

And, as you point out, we talk of inalienable human rights. I guess it is a given that other species do not have rights, or that those rights are subordinate to human rights. Who ordained that?  Or is it just that we humans are in a position to impose our will, so that power, alone, justifies us doing so?  The legal area of animal rights has grown in very recent times. Still nascent, but it was nonexistent not too long ago.  (Most U.S. jurisdictions, for example, have animal cruelty offenses).  Is this just folly?  Or have concepts of justice and rights changed?

As I said in my first post, these concepts have evolved, and they continue to evolve.  It is not static.  In my opinion, this is as it should be. The struggle for justice is a constant. 

       


Red_Dragon
y ddraig goch ddyry gychwyn
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Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 6:40am

 steeler wrote:

Define "justly acquired property."

Rhetorical question, really.

I'm oversimplifying, but the development of the common law — a human invention, by the way — that is the basis of our current legal system was designed largely to protect property (women, at a point, were chattel,). Of course, by that point, a lot of property had been acquired by force. So, the law protected property that was not justly acquired.  There, of course, are many examples of property that was not justly acquired. The land occupied by various American Indian tribes was taken from them, and they were relegated to less desirable lands in reservations.  

Some would argue — and Face did here, in a form—  that the land was meant to be shared, not owned. Although the American Indians did engage in warfare from time to time, they also had an inherent interest in shared property, especially land and its bounty.

Anyway, the point is that much of this is relative. And the concepts have evolved, and continue to evolve. In fact, who says that we were born with certain human rights, much less that those rights are defined as you have defined them here?  Is it a given?
   

 
We consider ourselves superior to the other inhabitents of the planet.  Yet, do their disagreements escalate (or even have the potential to escalate) into massive conflicts involving millions and destroying vast tracts of their environment?  Not to mention create a host of lesser restrictions on various groups within the species.  Seems our abstract concepts of rights and property cause a lot more problems than they solve.

Just thinking out loud.
steeler
About three bricks shy of a load
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Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 6:33am

 miamizsun wrote:

definitions are very important

we are all born with human rights

the right to live a voluntary peaceful life free from the initiation of murder, force, violence, coercion, enslavement and theft from another person or group of persons

health care is a human service, not a human right

you are free to associate with like minded people and negotiate in a peaceful voluntary manner practically any human service you wish (and i encourage this)

you aren't free to initiate force or threaten with force another peaceful human being for any reason

you or anyone else do not have a higher claim or cannot initiate a higher claim on another peaceful person's life, liberty, freedom or justly acquired property

to do so is clearly a violation of their human rights
regards

 
Define "justly acquired property."

Rhetorical question, really.

I'm oversimplifying, but the development of the common law — a human invention, by the way; a "human service" if you will — that is the basis of our current legal system was designed largely to protect property (women, at a point, were chattel,). Of course, by that point, a lot of property had been acquired by force. So, the law protected property that was not justly acquired.  There, of course, are many examples of property that was not justly acquired. The land occupied by various American Indian tribes was taken from them, and they were relegated to less desirable lands in reservations.  

Some would argue — and Face did here, in a form—  that the land was meant to be shared, not owned. Although the American Indians did engage in warfare from time to time, they also had an inherent interest in shared property, especially land and its bounty.

Anyway, the point is that much of this is relative. And the concepts have evolved, and continue to evolve. In fact, who says that we were born with certain human rights, much less that those rights are defined as you have defined them here?  Is it a given?
   


miamizsun

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Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 5:44am

 Zep wrote:

Start by asking a basic question - is health care a right?  I argue that it is: the government, in partnership with research organisations and universities, spends money on research and prevention of various diseases, such as cancer. The alternative is a less healthy and more unstable population. 

Since the government is spending public funds on this research, health care becomes a public good. If it's a good, then public has a "right" to it in the same way we have rights to other public goods, such as parkland. We can go in and use it, within reason and limitation, but we must share it, and we can't do anything we want. 

Many of the complaints I hear about the Affordable Care Act involve costs. e.g. it will drive up costs by forcing insurers to underwrite everyone regardless of risk. The healthy are grouped with the ailing, and premiums rise. But this statistical variation is reduced with a larger pool, which is why health care can be less expensive for larger companies than it is for smaller ones.

Why should someone pay more for health care simply based on the size of their pool? Well, one reason is that it's a statistical problem: higher health care costs can't be averaged out for smaller groups than larger ones. That is an absurd argument. But it's how insurance companies do business. ACA brings people into larger pools. 

As for the costs, I think it's all SWAG and no one really knows what this thing is going to cost. Projections - both for and against - are always calculated to align with the interests of those who commissioned the study. But that's not saying it's going to break the bank; it may very well end up a wash.

I can see why Obama took up ACA in his first administration: had he planned to wait until a second administration, which was no guarantee, the GOP could have simply outwaited him. 

I think it's a mistake for Romney to be talking about repealing ACA. I doubt he has the votes for it, and if he wins, his margin of victory will be slim - hardly a mandate, and certainly not enough to roll back a provision that people will increasingly find attractive.
 
So I've diverged from your point, but I do see health care becoming an issue in this election.

 
definitions are very important

we are all born with human rights

the right to live a voluntary peaceful life free from the initiation of murder, force, violence, coercion, enslavement and theft from another person or group of persons

health care is a human service, not a human right

you are free to associate with like minded people and negotiate in a peaceful voluntary manner practically any human service you wish (and i encourage this)

you aren't free to initiate force or threaten with force another peaceful human being for any reason

you or anyone else do not have a higher claim or cannot initiate a higher claim on another peaceful person's life, liberty, freedom or justly acquired property

to do so is clearly a violation of their human rights
regards


hippiechick
Did you ever grow anything in the garden of your mind?
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Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female
Zodiac: Cancer
Chinese Yr: Buffalo


Posted: Oct 5, 2012 - 4:29am

 kurtster wrote:

I have said openly that Romney sucks, and IMO Obama sucks more.

I am still a Democrat and identified myself as such when I went to work at the Romney headquarters in Kent, Ohio this week.  It was greeted with puzzlement, but I was welcomed aboard and my help was accepted and appreciated.

Obama IMO has highjacked the Party and needs to be turned out of office, again, IMO.  Adding reasons and explanations at this point is futile and unnecessary.  Opinions and feelings do not require reasons. 

But we have a major difference that explains my views in ways that are very difficult for Easterners to understand.  I am a Westerner, by birth, virtue, nature and state of mind.  I look at the country in two ways primarily, East of the Rockies and West of the Rockies.  Easterners only see North and South and somehow include the West with the North.  The West that I come from is all but gone and only a memory in people like me.  This is a not so gross oversimplification, but one nonetheless.  The West is a third point of view not generally recognized nor understood by Easterners.  We have generally always looked back east as the home of the evil far away disconnected District of Columbia and all those evil politicians that only want to screw up the west and exploit our resources and use the land as they see fit as opposed to the ways of the people that actually live there and manage the land in ways that work best for the people who live there.  Yankee go home was not just said in the South, I assure you.

This is the gap that I doubt that we will ever bridge.  Unless you were there before the invasion started in 1967 after the Summer of Love, I find that it would be very hard for anyone to understand what the west was really about.  Most of the history books found in schools are written with an eastern slant.  Similar to how the history of the Indians are told by eastern whitemen in our texts.  Our California State history texts were not written with that slant.  The slant was of local origin.  I'm not talking about US History, I'm speaking of California History which almost predates Eastern History and has totally different influences.

The Old West does still lives on to certain degrees in places like Montana and Wyoming to name a couple, but it is being challenged there too, if I might take the liberty to suggest that notion.  As long as you think of me politically in the context of North and South, you cannot understand me.

 
Kurt, you have a different way of looking at things, that's for sure. And what this has to do with anything, I have no idea.

It was Easterners who settled California, stealing it away from Mexico, and I am pretty sure this happened way before you were born.

By the time you were born, California was already invaded by Easterners. My mom begged my dad to move out there, but his mother laid a giant guilt trip on him and they stayed in Cleveland, but the migration had already begun.

You have that attitude of hating the Eastern Elitist, we have already heard that from you. 

Everyone is different, everyone is the same.  


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