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(a public service of RP)
Index » Regional/Local » Africa/Middle East » Israel Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 153, 154, 155  Next
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kurtster
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Posted: Mar 26, 2015 - 5:49am

 RichardPrins wrote:

As you said the "worst kept secret in the world". I used to call them Schroedinger nukes (since they were in a state of neither confirming nor denying their existence), and I've argued their existence in this forum before (probably pointing to the same '87 document). The result? Far-right posters denying the obvious.

I do give you credit for the common sense knowledge of Israel having nukes for all these years.  I was a tongue in cheek poke at you is all.  I never denied the existence of Israel's nukes.  Not aware of anyone here ever denying that either.  Perhaps other sites where you debate.

  
The rest of your post isn't about anything I said. Though it's fairly rife with ideological paranoia as well as more omissions. It's clear you want to talk about Iran, not Israel. A Bibi Light red herring reprise of sorts.

How do you talk about Israel without talking about Iran these days ?  Iran is working hard to accomplish The Final Solution or have you missed that ?

  
Having nukes is an effective deterrent. No talk of offensive capabilities was ever offered.

But why not go back to 1953 though? Overthrowing (coup d'etat) a democratically elected head of state (that threatened nationalization of oil), and putting a corrupt torturing puppet on his throne (who even was allowed to have nuclear technology)? Great way to ensure you get more polarization in a country as well as yet another enemy. A continued practice in line with the first point earlier, which you didn't want to address (I understand why, because whoever follows, Dem., Rep. (even in the unlikely guise of a Teabagger faction star-du-jour) will simply do more of the same).

There is one TP'er who does have the right idea about the USA's role in foreign policy, Rand Paul, at least in my mind.

  
The remark w.r.t. the nuclear free weapons zone stands on its own. Talks were cancelled in 2012. Want to guess by who? And why?


Yep, it failed, and made matters worse, no argument from me.  

  

 
I'll return the floor to you.  I accomplished what I set out to do, which was posting my little assessment of the current alignment of the US political factions presently in play, without relighting a thread to express it.  You just presented the opportunity is all.
RichardPrins

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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 10:33pm

 kurtster wrote:
on the second notion, Israel has had the bomb for decades.  Its been the worst kept secret in the world.  Did you just become aware of it when you read the article you posted below ? What the nuclear arms race in the ME has been going on since 1967 ?   Gimme a break, unless you want to go back to 1979 and the over throw of the Shah ?  That's when the crazy theocracy was established and their goal has been bring forth the Twelfth Imam, the elimination of first Israel and then the USA ever since.

If you really think Israel developed their bomb for offensive purposes, then why haven't they used it already ?
 
As you said the "worst kept secret in the world". I used to call them Schroedinger nukes (since they were in a state of neither confirming nor denying their existence), and I've argued their existence in this forum before (probably pointing to the same '87 document). The result? Far-right posters denying the obvious.

The rest of your post isn't about anything I said. Though it's fairly rife with ideological paranoia as well as more omissions. It's clear you want to talk about Iran, not Israel. A Bibi Light red herring reprise of sorts.

Having nukes is an effective deterrent. No talk of offensive capabilities was ever offered.

But why not go back to 1953 though? Overthrowing (coup d'etat) a democratically elected head of state (that threatened nationalization of oil), and putting a corrupt torturing puppet on his throne (who even was allowed to have nuclear technology)? Great way to ensure you get more polarization in a country as well as yet another enemy. A continued practice in line with the first point earlier, which you didn't want to address (I understand why, because whoever follows, Dem., Rep. (even in the unlikely guise of a Teabagger faction star-du-jour) will simply do more of the same).

The remark w.r.t. the nuclear free weapons zone stands on its own. Talks were cancelled in 2012. Want to guess by who? And why?

kurtster
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Location: counting flowers on the wall ...
Gender: Male
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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 9:52pm

 RichardPrins wrote:

The difference is that I make no pretence that the current occupant is any better or worse than his dismal predecessor. By now it's the nature of the beast.

As for the nuclear arms race in the Middle East, see a few posts down who started it and is allowed to get away with it. Because of this, preventing an arms race there (or creating a nuclear weapon free region as proposed by regional parties) is neither a serious endeavour (supported by the US) nor a possible outcome. Iran policy isn't aimed at that result anyway, despite public claims to the contrary.

 
I knew it couldn't last long ...

Passing on the first notion,

on the second notion, Israel has had the bomb for decades.  Its been the worst kept secret in the world.  Did you just become aware of it when you read the article you posted below ? What the nuclear arms race in the ME has been going on since 1967 ?   Gimme a break, unless you want to go back to 1979 and the over throw of the Shah ?  That's when the crazy theocracy was established and their goal has been bring forth the Twelfth Imam, the elimination of first Israel and then the USA ever since.

If you really think Israel developed their bomb for offensive purposes, then why haven't they used it already ?

I'll get your answer in the morning ...

 
RichardPrins

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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 9:16pm

 kurtster wrote:
Are we having an agreement on something ?  Aaaack !  
 
The difference is that I make no pretence that the current occupant is any better or worse than his dismal predecessor. By now it's the nature of the beast.

As for the nuclear arms race in the Middle East, see a few posts down who started it and is allowed to get away with it. Because of this, preventing an arms race there (or creating a nuclear weapon free region as proposed by regional parties) is neither a serious endeavour (supported by the US) nor a possible outcome. Iran policy isn't aimed at that result anyway, despite public claims to the contrary.
kurtster
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Location: counting flowers on the wall ...
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Libra
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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 9:09pm

 RichardPrins wrote:

Meddling, by whatever side of the aisle (or ally), leads to enemies which will evolve/rebrand themselves like a corporation with bad press (Blackwater, Xe, etc.). It's an extremely difficult concept to grasp, but there you have it. {#Wink}

 
Are we having an agreement on something ?  Aaaack !  


RichardPrins

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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 9:03pm

 kurtster wrote:
Not really, just omitted for brevity.

Besides, they "have been decimated" by Obama's strong leadership ...     {#Mrgreen}
 
Meddling, by whatever side of the aisle (or ally), leads to enemies which will evolve/rebrand themselves like a corporation with bad press (Blackwater, Xe, etc.). It's an extremely difficult concept to grasp, but there you have it. {#Wink}
kurtster
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Location: counting flowers on the wall ...
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Libra
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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 8:54pm

 RichardPrins wrote:

That would of course be the US-sponsored autocratic majority Sunni governments that are in a marriage of convenience. And I guess you already forgot Sunni Al-Qaeda. {#Mrgreen}

 
Not really, just omitted for brevity.

Besides, they "have been decimated" by Obama's strong leadership ...     {#Mrgreen}
RichardPrins

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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 8:51pm

 kurtster wrote:
The Sunni are on the side of Israel. (...)
 
That would of course be the US-sponsored autocratic majority Sunni governments that are in a marriage of convenience. And I guess you already forgot Sunni Al-Qaeda*. {#Mrgreen}

* which had a bit of a problem with US boots in Saudi Arabia, as well as the US-sponsored Israeli treatment of Palestinians.
kurtster
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Location: counting flowers on the wall ...
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Libra
Chinese Yr: Dragon


Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 8:38pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:
Fuck Zionism.

 
det to amerreeka !

det to amerreeka !

det to amerreeka !
kurtster
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Location: counting flowers on the wall ...
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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 8:36pm

 RichardPrins wrote:

When you're so intimately in bed together and are practically married, you'd think these things would be shared anyway. A jealous (or paranoid) lover who's checking your phone while you're asleep. {#Wink}

 
You would think that, eh ?

Actually from what I have gathered on this particular incident, Israel learned the so called secrets by listening to Iran and not the USA as Obama would like us to believe.

Obama has a real hard on for Israel and Bebe in particular.  Let us not forget that Obama's right hand man is an Iranian, Ms Valerie Jarrett.  Let's take a closer look at what really might be going on in the region over there.

There is civil war between Sunni and Shiia going on.  The Sunni are on the side of Israel.  They would be Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan to name the largest principles and they were elated that Netanyahu got re elected.  On the other side are the Shiia, the Iranians, the Syrians and the Iraqi's by proxy to Iran and The Muslim Brotherhood who wish Israel to cease to exist and bring death to America.  Obama (taking the democrats with him) is on the side of the Shiia while the republicans appear to be on the side of Israel and the Sunni.  Only Obama is trying to say that he is on no side when clearly by looking at how he handled Egypt, Libya, Syria and Israel, he has picked his sides.

ISIS is more Sunni than anything else, but bad for everyone overall.  Let's not forget Yemen, the little country that Obama not too long ago held up as a shining example of his successful foreign policy and also our key intelligence portal over there..  Howze that working for ya now, Mr President ?  

We now have Obama turning over Iraq to Iran and Iran leading the fight against ISIS.  Obama is also helping run interference for the Iranians to get the bomb, setting up a nucular arms race in the Middle East.  With Obama handing over the fight against Sunni ISIS to the Iranians, he keeps his hands clean and can effectively deflect any questions about being against anything over there except Israel.

Then Obama hates petroleum more than he hates republicans.  What better way to disrupt the entire world and screw it based upon its dependence of evil petroleum than by getting the over throw of the Sunnis in Saudi Arabia (just like he did with Qadaffy and Mubarek) and throwing the global market into total chaos with the Iranians controlling all oil flow via the Straits of Hormuz  ?

Oh, meanwhile Obama says that Climate Change is the greatest threat to world peace.  In reality, Climate Change is the shiny object he holds up to distract everyone's attention from what is going on over there.

 This does not end well.

Oh wait, this is just some fantasy dream thing.  Not a chance of any of this being real or in the slightest way possible at any level.

Silly me,  never mind ...
 


Red_Dragon
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Location: Jesusland


Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 8:25pm

Fuck Zionism.
RichardPrins

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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 7:52pm

 kurtster wrote:
Well, duh ...
 
When you're so intimately in bed together and are practically married, you'd think these things would be shared anyway. A jealous (or paranoid) lover who's checking your phone while you're asleep. {#Wink}
kurtster
ignore the kitteh behind the kurtain
kurtster Avatar

Location: counting flowers on the wall ...
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Libra
Chinese Yr: Dragon


Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 7:38pm

 RichardPrins wrote:
Greenwald:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu yesterday vehemently denied a Wall Street Journal report, leaked by the Obama White House, that Israel spied on U.S. negotiations with Iran and then fed the intelligence to Congressional Republicans. His office’s denial was categorical and absolute, extending beyond this specific story to U.S.-targeted spying generally, claiming: “The state of Israel does not conduct espionage against the United States or Israel’s other allies.”

Israel’s claim is not only incredible on its face. It is also squarely contradicted by top-secret NSA documents, which state that Israel targets the U.S. government for invasive electronic surveillance, and does so more aggressively and threateningly than almost any other country in the world. Indeed, so concerted and aggressive are Israeli efforts against the U.S. that some key U.S. government documents — including the top secret 2013 intelligence budget — list Israel among the U.S.’s most threatening cyber-adversaries and as a “hostile” foreign intelligence service.

One top-secret 2008 document features an interview with the NSA’s Global Capabilities Manager for Countering Foreign Intelligence, entitled “Which Foreign Intelligence Service Is the Biggest Threat to the US?” He repeatedly names Israel as one of the key threats.

While noting that Russia and China do the most effective spying on U.S., he says that “Israel also targets us.” He explains that “A NIE ranked as the third most aggressive intelligence service against the US.” While praising the surveillance relationship with Israel as highly valuable, he added: “One of NSA’s biggest threats is actually from friendly intelligence services, like Israel.
” Specifically, the Israelis “target us to learn our positions on Middle East problems.” (...)



 
Well, duh ...
RichardPrins

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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 7:28pm

Greenwald:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu yesterday vehemently denied a Wall Street Journal report, leaked by the Obama White House, that Israel spied on U.S. negotiations with Iran and then fed the intelligence to Congressional Republicans. His office’s denial was categorical and absolute, extending beyond this specific story to U.S.-targeted spying generally, claiming: “The state of Israel does not conduct espionage against the United States or Israel’s other allies.”

Israel’s claim is not only incredible on its face. It is also squarely contradicted by top-secret NSA documents, which state that Israel targets the U.S. government for invasive electronic surveillance, and does so more aggressively and threateningly than almost any other country in the world. Indeed, so concerted and aggressive are Israeli efforts against the U.S. that some key U.S. government documents — including the top secret 2013 intelligence budget — list Israel among the U.S.’s most threatening cyber-adversaries and as a “hostile” foreign intelligence service.

One top-secret 2008 document features an interview with the NSA’s Global Capabilities Manager for Countering Foreign Intelligence, entitled “Which Foreign Intelligence Service Is the Biggest Threat to the US?” He repeatedly names Israel as one of the key threats.

While noting that Russia and China do the most effective spying on U.S., he says that “Israel also targets us.” He explains that “A NIE ranked as the third most aggressive intelligence service against the US.” While praising the surveillance relationship with Israel as highly valuable, he added: “One of NSA’s biggest threats is actually from friendly intelligence services, like Israel.” Specifically, the Israelis “target us to learn our positions on Middle East problems.” (...)


RichardPrins

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Posted: Mar 23, 2015 - 2:07pm

It’s Official: The Pentagon Finally Admitted That Israel Has Nuclear Weapons, Too | The Nation

While the Washington press corps obsessed over Hillary Clinton’s e-mails at the State Department, reporters were missing a far more important story about government secrets. After five decades of pretending otherwise, the Pentagon has reluctantly confirmed that Israel does indeed possess nuclear bombs, as well as awesome weapons technology similar to America’s.

Early last month the Department of Defense released a secret report done in 1987 by the Pentagon-funded Institute for Defense Analysis that essentially confirms the existence of Israel’s nukes. DOD was responding to a Freedom of Information lawsuit filed by Grant Smith, an investigative reporter and author who heads the Institute for Research: Middle East Policy. Smith said he thinks this is the first time the US government has ever provided official recognition of the long-standing reality.

It’s not exactly news. Policy elites and every president from LBJ to Obama have known that Israel has the bomb. But American authorities have cooperated in the secrecy and prohibited federal employees from sharing the truth with the people. When the White House reporter Helen Thomas asked the question of Barack Obama back in 2009, the president ducked. “With respect to nuclear weapons, you know, I don’t want to speculate,” Obama said. That was an awkward fib. Obama certainly knows better, and so do nearly two-thirds of the American people, according to opinion polls. (...)


RichardPrins

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Posted: Feb 23, 2015 - 11:49am

Massive leak said to reveal Mossad's 'true' assessment on Iran nuclear program
Al-Jazeera says most significant release of secret documents since Snowden details intelligence information from numerous spy agencies.

Hundreds of confidential documents penned by South Africa's intelligence agency that detail meetings with Mossad operatives on Iran's nuclear program are expected to be published in the coming days, Al-Jazeera English reported on Monday.

The documents, part of a leak which is being referred to by Al-Jazeera as 'The Spy Cables,' appears to be most significant exposition of secret intelligence documents since former NSA contractor Edward Snowden revealed the breadth of American eavesdropping operations in 2013.

The documents, obtained by Al Jazeera in digital form, were also passed to the Guardian as part of the cooperation between the two newspapers, the Qatari network reported.

The report said it will reveal "the Israeli Mossad's true assessment of Iran's nuclear program."

The documents were said to also include detailed briefings and internal analyses written by South Africa's State Security Agency (SSA) operatives, and document meetings the agency's operatives held with the American CIA, British MI6, Russian FSB and other nations' intelligence agencies, between 2006 and 2014.

The cables detailed missives from the Mossad to its allies saying that Iran was unable to produce nuclear weapons – a month after Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu warned that such capability was within a year.

They also describe attempts by the CIA to contact Hamas directly, even as the U.S. government listed the Palestinian group as a "terrorist organization."



RichardPrins

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Posted: Feb 13, 2015 - 12:49pm

Conceding to a federal lawsuit, the US government agreed to release a 1987 Defense Department report detailing US assistance to Israel in its development of a hydrogen bomb, which skirted international standards.

The 386-page report, Critical Technology Assessment in Israel and NATO Nations,” likens top Israeli nuclear facilities to the Los Alamos and Oak Ridge National Laboratories that were key in the development of US nuclear weaponry.

Israelis are "developing the kind of codes which will enable them to make hydrogen bombs. That is, codes which detail fission and fusion processes on a microscopic and macroscopic level,” said the report, the release of which comes before Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's March 3 speech in front of the US Congress in which he will oppose any deal that allows Iran's legal nuclear program to persist.

"I am struck by the degree of cooperation on specialized war making devices between Israel and the US," Roger Mattson, a formerly of the Atomic Energy Commission’s technical staff, said of the report, according to Courthouse News.

The report’s release earlier this week was initiated by a Freedom of Information Act request made three years ago by Grant Smith, director of the Washington think tank Institute for Research: Middle Eastern Policy. Smith filed a lawsuit in September in order to compel the Pentagon to substantially address the request.

"It's our basic position that in 1987 the Department of Defense discovered that Israel had a nuclear weapons program, detailed it and then has covered it up for 25 years in violation of the Symington and Glenn amendments, costing taxpayers $86 billion,” Smith said during a hearing in late 2014 before Judge Tanya Chutkan in US District Court for the District of Columbia. (...)


RichardPrins

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Posted: Dec 19, 2014 - 3:44pm

Identity and Collective Denial - Lia Tarachansky on Reality Asserts Itself (1/3)
Lia Tarachansky is an Israeli-Russian journalist with The Real News Network reporting on Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories. Born in the Soviet Union, Tarachansky grew up in a settlement in the occupied West Bank. She is the director of On the Side of the Road, a documentary on Israel's biggest taboo - the events of 1948 when the state was created. Tarachansky previously worked as a Newsroom Producer in The Real News' Washington D.C. and Toronto Headquarters, and her work appeared on BBC, Al Jazeera, USA Today, Canadian Dimension Magazine and others.


RichardPrins

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Posted: Sep 17, 2014 - 8:24am

Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal
By JAMES BAMFORD

(...) Among (Snowden's) most shocking discoveries, he told me, was the fact that the N.S.A. was routinely passing along the private communications of Americans to a large and very secretive Israeli military organization known as Unit 8200. This transfer of intercepts, he said, included the contents of the communications as well as metadata such as who was calling whom.

Typically, when such sensitive information is transferred to another country, it would first be “minimized,” meaning that names and other personally identifiable information would be removed. But when sharing with Israel, the N.S.A. evidently did not ensure that the data was modified in this way.

Mr. Snowden stressed that the transfer of intercepts to Israel contained the communications — email as well as phone calls — of countless Arab- and Palestinian-Americans whose relatives in Israel and the Palestinian territories could become targets based on the communications. “I think that’s amazing,” he told me. “It’s one of the biggest abuses we’ve seen.”

It appears that Mr. Snowden’s fears were warranted. Last week, 43 veterans of Unit 8200 — many still serving in the reserves — accused the organization of startling abuses. In a letter to their commanders, to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and to the head of the Israeli army, they charged that Israel used information collected against innocent Palestinians for “political persecution.” In testimonies and interviews given to the media, they specified that data were gathered on Palestinians’ sexual orientations, infidelities, money problems, family medical conditions and other private matters that could be used to coerce Palestinians into becoming collaborators or create divisions in their society.

The veterans of Unit 8200 declared that they had a “moral duty” to no longer “take part in the state’s actions against Palestinians.” An Israeli military spokesman disputed the letter’s overall drift but said the charges would be examined.

It should trouble the American public that some or much of the information in question — intended not for national security purposes but simply to pursue political agendas — may have come directly from the N.S.A.’s domestic dragnet. According to documents leaked by Mr. Snowden and reported by the British newspaper The Guardian, the N.S.A. has been sending intelligence to Israel since at least March 2009.

The memorandum of agreement between the N.S.A. and its Israeli counterpart covers virtually all forms of communication, including but not limited to “unevaluated and unminimized transcripts, gists, facsimiles, telex, voice and Digital Network Intelligence metadata and content.” The memo also indicates that the N.S.A. does not filter out American communications before delivery to Israel; indeed, the agency “routinely sends” unminimized data.

Although the memo emphasizes that Israel should make use of the intercepts in accordance with United States law, it also notes that the agreement is legally unenforceable. “This agreement,” it reads, “is not intended to create any legally enforceable rights and shall not be construed to be either an international agreement or a legally binding instrument according to international law.” (...)


RichardPrins

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Posted: Sep 15, 2014 - 9:21am

Israeli refuseniks will be treated as criminals, says defence minister | World news | The Guardian

Forty-three Israeli military intelligence reservists who signed a letter refusing to serve in the occupied Palestinian territories have been denounced as "criminal" by defence minister Moshe Ya'alon, as the country's political and military leadership turned its fire on the refuseniks.

The ferocity of the response was not unexpected by those involved. One signatory told the Guardian before publication that he feared being portrayed as an enemy of the state after the letter was made public.

Among those who have criticised the reservists' actions are Israel's prime minister, the president, opposition leaders and a former intelligence head. In addition, the Israeli military revealed that 200 other members of the unit had signed a counter-letter defending its work.

The reservists' letter had alleged the unit undertook "all encompassing" surveillance of the Palestinians – whether involved in terrorism or not – and used information, including of sexual orientation, to blackmail individuals into becoming informants.

The threat of criminal sanctions would break the pattern of the treatment of reservists, including pilots, who signed previous refusenik letters who have tended to be discharged.

It is not clear, however, what charges the men and women could face. The 43 took legal advice from a prominent lawyer to ensure their letter and testimonies did not break the law, including by revealing their identities.

The text of the letter and most serious allegations were also submitted to the Israeli authorities before publication on Friday.

The letter, published with testimonies from reservists of Unit 8200, claimed much of its electronic interception work was being used to support the "political persecution" of Palestinians and the continued occupation. (...)


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