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kalika

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Posted: Mar 15, 2013 - 2:12am

To mskinsella, You are wrong.  I am not talking about corporations.  I'm talking about individuals.  Your liberty ENDS where the products of my mind are concerned.  Tell me where you are.  I want to move into your living space.  I'll bring my library too.  That should crowd you out.  You have no right to an individual space anyway.  Intellectual and moral IDIOCY.
kalika

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Posted: Mar 15, 2013 - 2:04am

Intellectual and property rights ARE consistent with individual rights.  If I create something and you use it without permission, I'm going to come after you. Never doubt it.  Check out Harlan Ellison on artists' rights.  This is the only individual to sue James Cameron twice, successfully, for violation of intellectual property law.  Incidentally, mere ideas cannot be copyrighted.  Individual works can.  The idea that anyone can use anything at any time, without permission, is just another symptom of a society that steeps itself in the idea that it is entitled to the property of others.
kalika

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Posted: Mar 15, 2013 - 1:54am

It seems to me that an artist, or an inventor for that matter, has a right to retain ownership of of his ,or her, creation.  Let's put it this way.  I'm going to borrow your car without your permission.  I'm going to drive it around town for awhile.  Then, I'm going to drive to another town, park the car, leave the keys in it and walk away.  That's called THEFT.  I find it very telling that the people who ignore the rights of creative people think that they are entitled to use said work without compensation.  RP has to pay for the songs it runs.  There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.  By the way, I'm going to move into the house that you own.  You have no property rights.  Intellectual and moral bankruptcy.
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Posted: Feb 25, 2013 - 2:17pm

Published on Jan 23, 2013

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miamizsun

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Posted: Feb 25, 2013 - 2:14pm


miamizsun

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Posted: Oct 8, 2012 - 5:14am

 nskinsella wrote:
I haven't followed all this... but the whole way this is approached by most people seems confused to me. We do not adopt policy based on "solutions" etc.—that is unprincipled and confused utilitarianism, and usually buys into electoral (and Republic) politics. And people saying we need to find a "balance"—between competition and free market and property rights, on the one hand, and between censorship and state squelching of competition on the other—are also confused. It is very clear that patent and copyright are completely illegitimate and antithetical to property rights,individual rights, the free market, and competition. Period. There is really no good argument for IP. None. It should be abolished. It is totally evil. It is probably the 5th or 6th worst and most dangeous state policies. Anyone who is in favor of it is either a mercantialist-protectionist-fascist, or is confused. You cannot have liberty and IP. You have to choose. 

 
aside from the principled argument (which i agree with) ip/copy right is being used as an excuse for our government to monitor all things digital

it's quickly moving past that and "legal" precedent is going to be set for the physical, or defined in a way that could possibly have big ramifications

on current resale(existing stuff) and future production/use (btw, based on what i've read i really think the next evolution of 3-D printing is/will be the next big thing, a real game changer)

an example might look like this

Oct. 7, 2012, 2:00 p.m. EDT

Your right to resell your own stuff is in peril

It could become illegal to resell your iPhone 4, car or family antiques

By Jennifer Waters, MarketWatch

This update corrects the spelling of Georgetown Law School’s Jonathan Band.

CHICAGO (MarketWatch) — Tucked into the U.S. Supreme Court’s agenda this fall is a little-known case that could upend your ability to resell everything from your grandmother’s antique furniture to your iPhone 4.

At issue in Kirtsaeng v. John Wiley & Sons is the first-sale doctrine in copyright law, which allows you to buy and then sell things like electronics, books, artwork and furniture, as well as CDs and DVDs, without getting permission from the copyright holder of those products.

A Supreme Court case could limit the resale of goods made overseas but sold in America.

Under the doctrine, which the Supreme Court has recognized since 1908, you can resell your stuff without worry because the copyright holder only had control over the first sale.

Put simply, though Apple Inc. (NASDAQ:AAPL)  has the copyright on the iPhone and Mark Owen has it on the book “No Easy Day,” you can still sell your copies to whomever you please whenever you want without retribution.

That’s being challenged now for products that are made abroad, and if the Supreme Court upholds an appellate court ruling, it would mean that the copyright holders of anything you own that has been made in China, Japan or Europe, for example, would have to give you permission to sell it.

“It means that it’s harder for consumers to buy used products and harder for them to sell them,” said Jonathan Band, an adjunct professor at Georgetown University Law Center, who filed a friend-of-the-court brief on behalf of the American Library Association, the Association of College and Research Libraries and the Association for Research Libraries. “This has huge consumer impact on all consumer groups.”

Another likely result is that it would hit you financially because the copyright holder would now want a piece of that sale.

It could be your personal electronic devices or the family jewels that have been passed down from your great-grandparents who immigrated from Spain. It could be a book that was written by an American writer but printed and bound overseas, or an Italian painter’s artwork.

There are implications for a variety of wide-ranging U.S. entities, including libraries, musicians, museums and even resale juggernauts eBay Inc. (NASDAQ:EBAY)  and Craigslist. U.S. libraries, for example, carry some 200 million books from foreign publishers.

“It would be absurd to say anything manufactured abroad can’t be bought or sold here,” said Marvin Ammori, a First Amendment lawyer and Schwartz Fellow at the New American Foundation who specializes in technology issues.

The case stems from Supap Kirtsaeng’s college experience. A native of Thailand, Kirtsaeng came to America in 1997 to study at Cornell University. When he discovered that his textbooks, produced by Wiley, were substantially cheaper to buy in Thailand than they were in Ithaca, N.Y., he rallied his Thai relatives to buy the books and ship them to him in the United States.

Better made in the U.S.A.

While American men's brands once prized European craftsmanship or appreciated low-cost production from the Far East, some of the best fashion now is made right here in the U.S. Martin Marks talks menswear. (Photo: AP)

He then sold them on eBay, making upward of $1.2 million, according to court documents.

Wiley, which admitted that it charged less for books sold abroad than it did in the United States, sued him for copyright infringement. Kirtsaeng countered with the first-sale doctrine.

In August 2011, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit upheld a lower court’s ruling that anything that was manufactured overseas is not subject to the first-sale principle. Only American-made products or “copies manufactured domestically” were.

“That’s a non-free-market capitalistic idea for something that’s pretty fundamental to our modern economy,” Ammori commented.

The Supreme Court is scheduled to hear oral arguments on the case on Oct. 29.

Both Ammori and Band worry that a decision in favor of the lower court would lead to some strange, even absurd consequences. For example, it could become an incentive for manufacturers to have everything produced overseas because they would be able to control every resale.

It could also become a weighty issue for auto trade-ins and resales, considering about 40% of most U.S.-made cars carry technology and parts that were made overseas.

This is a particularly important decision for the likes of eBay and Craigslist, whose very business platform relies on the secondary marketplace. If sellers had to get permission to peddle their wares on the sites, they likely wouldn’t do it.

Moreover, a major manufacturer would likely go to eBay to get it to pull a for-sale item off the site than to the individual seller, Ammori added.

In its friend-of-the-court brief, eBay noted that the Second Circuit’s rule “affords copyright owners the ability to control the downstream sales of goods for which they have already been paid.” What’s more, it “allows for significant adverse consequences for trade, e-commerce, secondary markets, small businesses, consumers and jobs in the United States.”

Ammori, for one, wonders what the impact would be to individual Supreme Court justices who may buy and sell things of their own. He himself once bought an antique desk from a Supreme Court justice. “Sometimes it’s impossible to tell where things have been manufactured,” he said. “Who doesn’t buy and sell things? Millions of Americans would be affected by this.”

If the Supreme Court does rule with the appellate court, it’s likely that the matter would be brought to Congress to force a change in law. Until then, however, consumers would be stuck between a rock and a hard place when trying to resell their stuff.



nskinsella

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Posted: Sep 12, 2012 - 4:00pm

 steeler wrote:


I guess the Founders were idiots . . . or they were hopelessly confused.

Been dazed and confused for so long . . .

 
I think this is correct. Idiots, confused, and wicked. They were just wrong about IP, as about other things.
buzz
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Posted: Sep 12, 2012 - 3:37pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

Welcome...

If you are the author, seems like announcing that fact up front might make some sense. Because otherwise you're just some new guy waving a pointy stick. We'll all pay enough attention to make sure you don't poke us with it but beyond that my first instinct is to leave you the hell alone.

 
its been a long week. i read that as "pointing a whacky stick". 

 
i think i will leave you the hell alone 
ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Sep 12, 2012 - 3:16pm

 nskinsella wrote:
I haven't followed all this... but the whole way this is approached by most people seems confused to me. We do not adopt policy based on "solutions" etc.—that is unprincipled and confused utilitarianism, and usually buys into electoral (and Republic) politics. And people saying we need to find a "balance"—between competition and free market and property rights, on the one hand, and between censorship and state squelching of competition on the other—are also confused. It is very clear that patent and copyright are completely illegitimate and antithetical to property rights,individual rights, the free market, and competition. Period. There is really no good argument for IP. None. It should be abolished. It is totally evil. It is probably the 5th or 6th worst and most dangeous state policies. Anyone who is in favor of it is either a mercantialist-protectionist-fascist, or is confused. You cannot have liberty and IP. You have to choose. 

 
Welcome...

If you are the author, seems like announcing that fact up front might make some sense. Because otherwise you're just some new guy waving a pointy stick. We'll all pay enough attention to make sure you don't poke us with it but beyond that my first instinct is to leave you the hell alone.
steeler
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Posted: Sep 12, 2012 - 2:25pm

 nskinsella wrote:
I haven't followed all this... but the whole way this is approached by most people seems confused to me. We do not adopt policy based on "solutions" etc.—that is unprincipled and confused utilitarianism, and usually buys into electoral (and Republic) politics. And people saying we need to find a "balance"—between competition and free market and property rights, on the one hand, and between censorship and state squelching of competition on the other—are also confused. It is very clear that patent and copyright are completely illegitimate and antithetical to property rights,individual rights, the free market, and competition. Period. There is really no good argument for IP. None. It should be abolished. It is totally evil. It is probably the 5th or 6th worst and most dangeous state policies. Anyone who is in favor of it is either a mercantialist-protectionist-fascist, or is confused. You cannot have liberty and IP. You have to choose. 

 

I guess the Founders were idiots . . . or they were hopelessly confused.

Been dazed and confused for so long . . .


nskinsella

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Posted: Sep 12, 2012 - 2:21pm

I haven't followed all this... but the whole way this is approached by most people seems confused to me. We do not adopt policy based on "solutions" etc.—that is unprincipled and confused utilitarianism, and usually buys into electoral (and Republic) politics. And people saying we need to find a "balance"—between competition and free market and property rights, on the one hand, and between censorship and state squelching of competition on the other—are also confused. It is very clear that patent and copyright are completely illegitimate and antithetical to property rights,individual rights, the free market, and competition. Period. There is really no good argument for IP. None. It should be abolished. It is totally evil. It is probably the 5th or 6th worst and most dangeous state policies. Anyone who is in favor of it is either a mercantialist-protectionist-fascist, or is confused. You cannot have liberty and IP. You have to choose. 
aflanigan

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Posted: Sep 12, 2012 - 8:22am

 LordBaltimore wrote:

Haha, well it's been a fun debate, that's for sure. I admit that IP is a major part of our society right now and removing it would be a big transition.  And though I haven't yet, there may come a day when I grit my teeth and file for a patent since it is so pervasive in the software industry these days.  Even Kinsella himself is a patent lawyer who sees the shortcomings in the system but still works within it to help firms avoid being sued.  I'm facebook friends with him actually, and did invite him to join this discussion since I've been citing his work so much.  

 

 
There is probably hardly anyone involved with IP who is completely satisfied with the system we have and the way it operates now.  But the ideas on how to "fix" things really run the gamut.  All kinds of different perspectives out there.

I'm just mainly wary of proposed solutions that seemed to be based on an idealized notion that we can have a perfect system that makes everyone happy.  We're humans, and when it comes to humans, whether it's politics, law, property rights, or what have you, there is going to be unhappiness and gnashing of teeth, I suspect. 

Pointing out the flaws in a bureaucracy (nonhereditary bureaucracy invented by Qin Shihuandi, thanks, Emperor!) is all good fun, but the question is, what sort of flawed system do you want to replace the flawed bureaucracy with?  We did actually eliminate patent examination in this country from 1793 to 1836 (patents were merely registered, and left to the courts to decide on their validity).  This made a lot of people unhappy, particularly the clogged up courts filled with frivolous patent lawsuits.
LordBaltimore

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Posted: Sep 12, 2012 - 7:54am

 aflanigan wrote:
I don't think, m'lord, that you or Mr. Kinsella are going to have an easy time being elected president of the PIAUSA



The strange coincidence in our discussion, of course, is that the concept of intellectual property, and the concept of exclusive rights for ideas, is in itself something that sprang from the creative human mind.  Too bad Brunelleschi didn't think to patent his idea of obtaining exclusive rights to inventions; he could have made a killing selling it to other city-states.

 
Haha, well it's been a fun debate, that's for sure. I admit that IP is a major part of our society right now and removing it would be a big transition.  And though I haven't yet, there may come a day when I grit my teeth and file for a patent since it is so pervasive in the software industry these days.  Even Kinsella himself is a patent lawyer who sees the shortcomings in the system but still works within it to help firms avoid being sued.  I'm facebook friends with him actually, and did invite him to join this discussion since I've been citing his work so much.  

 
aflanigan

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Posted: Sep 12, 2012 - 7:43am

I don't think, m'lord, that you or Mr. Kinsella are going to have an easy time being elected president of the PIAUSA



The strange coincidence in our discussion, of course, is that the concept of intellectual property, and the concept of exclusive rights for ideas, is in itself something that sprang from the creative human mind.  Too bad Brunelleschi didn't think to patent his idea of obtaining exclusive rights to inventions; he could have made a killing selling it to other city-states.
Proclivities
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Posted: Sep 12, 2012 - 7:43am

 LordBaltimore wrote:

Good catch, thanks for the fix.  But most major actors' salaries for being in a film are more than enough to pay the bills by themselves.  I'm sure Will Smith can live just fine off the "lump sum" part of his movie deals.

 
Yes, I imagine the salaries for "A-List" celebrities probably go a long way, even before residuals come in.  That's part of the difference too; most independent artists, designers, writers, composers, etc., probably do not receive any large, initial outlay of money for their work.


LordBaltimore

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Posted: Sep 12, 2012 - 7:39am

 aflanigan wrote:
 LordBaltimore wrote:

I agree that people should be able to sell their thoughts.  But once the thought is transferred from Person A to Person B, unless there's an explicit provision saying that Person B cannot reproduce that thought, Person B should be able to copy it as much as they want.  And even if there is a contract between Person A and Person B, if Person C obtains the thought from Person B, Person C has done nothing wrong because they had no such contract with Person A.  

Think about non-compete agreements.  If you violate a non-compete agreement and go to work for a rival company, you are at fault but the rival company isn't.  The rival company didn't have a contract with your original employer, only you did.

You don't seem to see the glaring inequity here.

Person B gets to profit as much as person A when they sell to person C, even though the thought did not originate with them.  If person A now goes to persons D, E, and F and says "I have a great invention that would help you a lot", persons D, E, and F each say, "person C will sell it to me for 50 percent of what you charge".  Person C has now earned back all that he paid you, plus 50%, on your idea that she had nothing to do with originating or creating.  Is that equitable?

That's why Brunelleschi refused to disclose his Il Badalone boat design until he had some guarantee of fair recompense.

 
Look if Person B violates a contract with Person A not to disclose or copy Person A's work, person A should go ahead and throw the book at Person B.  I'm all for that.  Breach of contract is a serious violation. But again, as far as Person C's concerned, no contract, no foul.  

And as far as this Brunelleschi guy is concerned, maybe he did the smart thing.  It probably is wise to be careful what you reveal about an idea so that you can maximize your return on it.  And nowadays with sites like kickstarter out there, you can wait until enough folks have contributed or agreed to contribute to release the full details of your idea.   
LordBaltimore

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Posted: Sep 12, 2012 - 7:35am

 Proclivities wrote:

Most top actors do receive residuals on their films and the films' later distribution into DVDs, cable, syndication, etc.

 
Good catch, thanks for the fix.  But most major actors' salaries for being in a film are more than enough to pay the bills by themselves.  I'm sure Will Smith can live just fine off the "lump sum" part of his movie deals.
aflanigan

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Posted: Sep 12, 2012 - 7:34am

 LordBaltimore wrote:

I agree that people should be able to sell their thoughts.  But once the thought is transferred from Person A to Person B, unless there's an explicit provision saying that Person B cannot reproduce that thought, Person B should be able to copy it as much as they want.  And even if there is a contract between Person A and Person B, if Person C obtains the thought from Person B, Person C has done nothing wrong because they had no such contract with Person A.  

Think about non-compete agreements.  If you violate a non-compete agreement and go to work for a rival company, you are at fault but the rival company isn't.  The rival company didn't have a contract with your original employer, only you did.

You don't seem to see the glaring inequity here.

Person B gets to profit as much as person A when they sell to person C, even though the thought did not originate with them.  If person A now goes to persons D, E, and F and says "I have a great invention that would help you a lot", persons D, E, and F each say, "person C will sell it to me for 50 percent of what you charge".  Person C has now earned back all that he paid you, plus 50%, on your idea that she had nothing to do with originating or creating.  Is that equitable?

That's why Brunelleschi refused to disclose his Il Badalone boat design until he had some guarantee of fair recompense.


Proclivities
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Posted: Sep 12, 2012 - 7:33am

 LordBaltimore wrote:
 Actors only get paid once for their performances in movies, they don't get royalties.  Why should performers and writers get them?
 
Most top actors do receive residuals on their films' later distribution into DVDs, cable, syndication, etc.


aflanigan

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Posted: Sep 12, 2012 - 7:26am

 LordBaltimore wrote:
Here's another example Kinsella provides. 

What if you have a slab of marble on your property that you own, and Person A sneaks onto your property without your permission and makes a beautiful sculpture out of it.  Does Person A now own the sculpture?  Of course not!  But under our system of copyrights and patents, if you wanted to photograph the sculpture that Person A made on YOUR slab of marble, you'd be violating Person A's intellectual property rights!!  

 

 

That's a rather absurd hypothetical example, wouldn't you agree?

If you want to photograph the sculpture for the police as evidence that someone trespassed, that would probably constitute fair use (assuming the trespasser had registered a copyright).  If you photographed it and tried to sell the photograph to a magazine specializing in trespass sculpture, that might potentially constitute a derivative work.
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