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kurtster

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Posted: Dec 17, 2017 - 3:16pm

 steeler wrote:

And I acknowledged that politics probably played some role in the timing.  You specified the timing of the allegations coming out in the general election instead of the primary. We all know that in elections for high offices that there often are attempts to dig up dirt on the opposing candidate.  What point are you trying to make?    

 
That these events just don't pop up spontaneously.  

One way to consider the chronology is that the victims were more interested in going after an entire party than the individual.  If the individual should be stopped, why not as soon as possible ?  Why let them advance ?  So you wait and bring this up right after the ballots are locked, you get the entire party because its now too late to find someone else or even change the ballots.  So just how offended were you by this individual ?  Not enough to take only him down, but enough to go after an entire party ?  Ok, if that's the case then admit it.  If its not the reason for the timing then just what is going on that would make the timing entirely innocent as we are told to believe ?  

If one was honestly interested in the integrity of the election process and getting the best candidates forward on all sides, then don't sit on evidence that revealing as soon as possible would benefit all, not just one side. 

That is the problem and my point.  

Is this a problem in your mind ?
steeler
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Posted: Dec 17, 2017 - 12:36pm

 kurtster wrote:

I made it quite clear that my point was not about that. 

 
And I acknowledged that politics probably played some role in the timing.  You specified the timing of the allegations coming out in the general election instead of the primary. We all know that in elections for high offices that there often are attempts to dig up dirt on the opposing candidate.  What point are you trying to make?    
kurtster

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Posted: Dec 17, 2017 - 12:22pm

 steeler wrote:

Did politics enter into the timing? I think so. Does that make the allegations untrue? I think not.
 

 
I made it quite clear that my point was not about that. 


steeler
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Posted: Dec 17, 2017 - 9:24am

 kurtster wrote:
One more thought about Roy Moore.  I have not seen this thought about the timing of the revelations of his conduct mentioned anywhere.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm concerned about why the revelations of his past were not made during the runoff between Strange and Moore.  That would have been the appropriate time to bring it up.  He was a real contender then.  Why not then and only a month or so later after he was the final choice was it brought up.  That is what smells to me as pure political malevolence. Surely those who were violated by Moore were just as concerned during the runoff as they were after he was the final choice.  What, it didn't bother them until he was a real possibility just a month later as opposed to a possible possibility ?  This just smells real bad.

And no, in no way do I think that Moore should get a pass on anything and am relieved that he didn't get elected. 

My only remaining concern is about the timing of how this played out.  My thought is that if Moore had lost the runoff, we would never had heard one peep from his victims.

 
Did politics enter into the timing? I think so. Does that make the allegations untrue? I think not.
 
kurtster

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Posted: Dec 17, 2017 - 8:57am

One more thought about Roy Moore.  I have not seen this thought about the timing of the revelations of his conduct mentioned anywhere.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm concerned about why the revelations of his past were not made during the runoff between Strange and Moore.  That would have been the appropriate time to bring it up.  He was a real contender then.  Why not then and only a month or so later after he was the final choice was it brought up.  That is what smells to me as pure political malevolence. Surely those who were violated by Moore were just as concerned during the runoff as they were after he was the final choice.  What, it didn't bother them until he was a real possibility just a month later as opposed to a possible possibility ?  This just smells real bad.

And no, in no way do I think that Moore should get a pass on anything and am relieved that he didn't get elected. 

My only remaining concern is about the timing of how this played out.  My thought is that if Moore had lost the runoff, we would never had heard one peep from his victims.


Steely_D
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Posted: Dec 15, 2017 - 2:57pm


miamizsun

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Posted: Dec 15, 2017 - 12:22pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

This is an odd case; seems she published a novel at the same time she made the accusation. 

 
it's all odd

hastings has weathered a lot

folks here liken him marion barry

he's teflon
ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Dec 15, 2017 - 12:17pm

 miamizsun wrote:
in my own backyard!

Florida Dem accused of sexual harassment gets support from Congress

WASHINGTON The phrase “I believe the women” has become a motto for lawmakers in the wake of career-ending sexual harassment allegations against Rep. John Conyers and Sen. Al Franken. But when sexual harassment allegations against South Florida Democratic Rep. Alcee Hastings from 2011 resurfaced last week, the reaction was different.

“I believe him,” said Rep. Frederica Wilson, a Miami Gardens Democrat.

Capitol Hill news outlet Roll Call reported on Friday that a woman who accused Hastings of unwanted touching and lewd remarks in 2011 received a $220,000 taxpayer-funded settlement, the largest amount reported since a wave of sexual harassment allegations began sweeping through Congress.

The 81-year-old Hastings denies the allegations and said he had no previous knowledge that taxpayer funds were paid out to Winsome Packer, a congressional staffer who worked for a commission that studies security and cooperation in Europe. Court documents show that he was removed from the sexual harassment lawsuit in 2012. Packer continued the lawsuit against the commission after Hastings was removed, and the payment was made in 2014, according to Roll Call.

 
This is an odd case; seems she published a novel at the same time she made the accusation. 
miamizsun

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Posted: Dec 15, 2017 - 12:07pm

in my own backyard!

Florida Dem accused of sexual harassment gets support from Congress

WASHINGTON The phrase “I believe the women” has become a motto for lawmakers in the wake of career-ending sexual harassment allegations against Rep. John Conyers and Sen. Al Franken. But when sexual harassment allegations against South Florida Democratic Rep. Alcee Hastings from 2011 resurfaced last week, the reaction was different.

“I believe him,” said Rep. Frederica Wilson, a Miami Gardens Democrat.

Capitol Hill news outlet Roll Call reported on Friday that a woman who accused Hastings of unwanted touching and lewd remarks in 2011 received a $220,000 taxpayer-funded settlement, the largest amount reported since a wave of sexual harassment allegations began sweeping through Congress.

The 81-year-old Hastings denies the allegations and said he had no previous knowledge that taxpayer funds were paid out to Winsome Packer, a congressional staffer who worked for a commission that studies security and cooperation in Europe. Court documents show that he was removed from the sexual harassment lawsuit in 2012. Packer continued the lawsuit against the commission after Hastings was removed, and the payment was made in 2014, according to Roll Call.


R_P
Ni dieu ni maître
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Posted: Dec 15, 2017 - 11:39am

Kansas Dem Andrea Ramsey, accused of sexual harassment, will drop out of US House race
kurtster

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Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 8:08pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

I take choice B also. Of course the world is gray, and very soon we're going to have to get back to some sort of due process. The problem is, dick cheese like Moore would force his accusers to sit in a courtroom and spell out exactly what happened and then he'd say they're lying and attack them... all the classic reasons women haven't come forward. We can't go back to that. 
 
If we discover that a weeping discharge like Roger Stone did coach Al Franken's accusers, he should be punished as severely as the person wrongly accused. If Al's charged with rape and that charge carries a 20-year sentence, then Stone's meddling should also carry a 20-year sentence. The downside to bearing false witness has to be as crushing as the wrongful prosecution is to the convicted. Of course, this too means women will hesitate to come forward with a wavering accusation.

So we're entering a phase of puritanism that will ruin some innocents' lives. The pendulum swings. I'm over here out of the way, I hope, and I know that for now, it's worth it. It's important to get to a point where people don't just think twice about being a creepy power junkie, they don't even think about it. Being thought of as a creep has to become unacceptable again. For too long now, it's seemed like a badge of honor for some people.
 
I said choose your poison because there are losers either way. Is being falsely accused, 2 decades after the fact, terrible? Sure. More terrible than being raped and feeling like you need to keep quiet about it? No.

 
Ok, I can agree with you on this, especially the bolded.  The pendulum is definitely moving again to be certain. 
ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 6:46pm

 kurtster wrote:

I'll take the second choice if I have to pick.  Since you asked and I answered, which one do you pick ?

 
I take choice B also. Of course the world is gray, and very soon we're going to have to get back to some sort of due process. The problem is, dick cheese like Moore would force his accusers to sit in a courtroom and spell out exactly what happened and then he'd say they're lying and attack them... all the classic reasons women haven't come forward. We can't go back to that. 
 
If we discover that a weeping discharge like Roger Stone did coach Al Franken's accusers, he should be punished as severely as the person wrongly accused. If Al's charged with rape and that charge carries a 20-year sentence, then Stone's meddling should also carry a 20-year sentence. The downside to bearing false witness has to be as crushing as the wrongful prosecution is to the convicted. Of course, this too means women will hesitate to come forward with a wavering accusation.

So we're entering a phase of puritanism that will ruin some innocents' lives. The pendulum swings. I'm over here out of the way, I hope, and I know that for now, it's worth it. It's important to get to a point where people don't just think twice about being a creepy power junkie, they don't even think about it. Being thought of as a creep has to become unacceptable again. For too long now, it's seemed like a badge of honor for some people.
 
I said choose your poison because there are losers either way. Is being falsely accused, 2 decades after the fact, terrible? Sure. More terrible than being raped and feeling like you need to keep quiet about it? No.
kurtster

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Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 6:19pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

I was referring to allowing leniency for things that happened some time ago:
might be motivated only by politics (not just "political" politics but office politics too) or revenge when the original incident wasn't actually as described so maybe we should take it easy there. Ramifications: Leaving rapists/molesters in a position to continue raping or simply go unpunished

OR
go after all of the accused, possibly sweeping out good people who were not guilty as would-have-been charged, or people who have long since turned a corner and are no longer deserving of further punishment
 
I offered Kurt the opportunity to choose his poison, meant in all seriousness. I don't think he really is suggesting we look the other way if someone's accused of rape. But the feeling that he's saying all the accusers of Roy Moore are just political pawns (but Al Franken's victims are not) does suggest he should stop digging. Because at least half of his posts here continue to qualify for a WTF are you kidding me? response.

 
Sorry, that was just too open ended of a question the way you presented it to even try and speculate an answer.

But since you clarified it a little bit better I'll offer up this ...

I'm still a little butt hurt as you say that anyone would even think that I think rape is ok at any level for starters, let alone look the other way for any reason.  The Franken and Moore do compare.  Both are old enough and without photo proof of Franken, I doubt that it would have gone very far.  Both of their victims are victims and since this went public, they are all political pawns, imo.  We have left the court of law and gone into the court of public opinion.

I'll take the second choice if I have to pick.  Since you asked and I answered, which one do you pick ?
Coaxial
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Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 5:34pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

I was referring to allowing leniency for things that happened some time ago:
might be motivated only by politics (not just "political" politics but office politics too) or revenge when the original incident wasn't actually as described so maybe we should take it easy there. Ramifications: Leaving rapists/molesters in a position to continue raping or simply go unpunished

OR
go after all of the accused, possibly sweeping out good people who were not guilty as would-have-been charged, or people who have long since turned a corner and are no longer deserving of further punishment
 
I offered Kurt the opportunity to choose his poison, meant in all seriousness. I don't think he really is suggesting we look the other way if someone's accused of rape. But the feeling that he's saying all the accusers of Roy Moore are just political pawns (but Al Franken's victims are not) does suggest he should stop digging. Because at least half of his posts here continue to qualify for a WTF are you kidding me? response.

 
Welcome to my world,amigo.
kurtster

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Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 3:21pm

 aflanigan wrote:

If this is an allusion to Moore's many accusers, the initial ones did not "come forward" as his craven, dissembling defenders have suggested.  They were approach by reporters working on a story. They were reluctant to tell their story publicly (understandable given how the GOP rage monkeys have reacted) and only agreed to go public after several interviews.

Is that where you're going with this? 

 
No.  Its with the hope that we accomplish establishing an atmosphere where victims of sexual transgressions can come forward without fear of disbelief or retaliation and not have to suffer in the shadows forever as has been the case up until now.  I really think that these revelations will continue for some time and when it's run its course Moore will barely be remembered just based on the sheer magnitude of people coming forward.   

If after all of this has run its course and the results make it more comfortable to bring these kinds of things up that there just simply will not be many left and victims begin to deal with attackers in real time. The attackers will have finally lost the ability to intimidate their victims due to the fact that we have established an awareness that these things are no longer acceptable (once again) at any level, not isolated incidents; that these things can no longer be swept under the rug by the powerful or connected.  I doubt that we'll ever stop those who are just plain wired wrong, but it would be nice to think that we can stop those who would attempt these things just because they think that they can get away with this stuff based solely upon their power and status.

I clearly have bitten off more than I can chew.  I'll leave this for the more learned now.  I was just trying to figure out exactly who we are talking about here (just women who are victims or everyone) and be optimistic that we can finally get a handle on this, this time around and that this will be the last time around.  

{#Meditate}


hayduke2

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Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 10:47am

I would show respect and gratitude to anyone who brings to light criminal acts perpetrated by a potential Judge, or Political Representative 

ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints
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Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 10:47am

 aflanigan wrote:

The Law of Holes is one that some people are apparently unfamiliar with.

 
I was referring to allowing leniency for things that happened some time ago:
might be motivated only by politics (not just "political" politics but office politics too) or revenge when the original incident wasn't actually as described so maybe we should take it easy there. Ramifications: Leaving rapists/molesters in a position to continue raping or simply go unpunished

OR
go after all of the accused, possibly sweeping out good people who were not guilty as would-have-been charged, or people who have long since turned a corner and are no longer deserving of further punishment
 
I offered Kurt the opportunity to choose his poison, meant in all seriousness. I don't think he really is suggesting we look the other way if someone's accused of rape. But the feeling that he's saying all the accusers of Roy Moore are just political pawns (but Al Franken's victims are not) does suggest he should stop digging. Because at least half of his posts here continue to qualify for a WTF are you kidding me? response.
miamizsun

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Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 10:41am

 aflanigan wrote:
The Law of Holes is one that some people are apparently unfamiliar with.
 
unless you're a miner or digging a well

then all bets are off
Proclivities
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Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 10:35am

 kurtster wrote:
And one more question to ask if I may ?
With all of this coming out now and we have an attempt to reconcile all this, is the next step to say that if you haven't spoken up now about what happened to you 10, 20, 30 or 40 years ago, forever hold your peace ...  Can we let someone out of the blue still come forward at some very critical time and accuse them in order to influence an election ?  
 
People may have any number of reasons for not coming forward sooner than later.  I don't think it would be preferable that only 'newer' victims of priest sexual crimes or victims of Jerry Sandusky came forward.
ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 10:31am

 aflanigan wrote:

If this is an allusion to Moore's many accusers, the initial ones did not "come forward" as his craven, dissembling defenders have suggested.  They were approach by reporters working on a story. They were reluctant to tell their story publicly (understandable given how the GOP rage monkeys have reacted) and only agreed to go public after several interviews.

Is that where you're going with this? 

 
I think he's regretful that Al Franken's initial accuser was coached and scripted by Roger Stone et al, would not have come forward without their urging, and tweeted a scripted message that she immediately walked back as far as her own level of upset was concerned. I would be, too.
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