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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Can Democrats be a Party of Values? Should They Try? Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 15, 16, 17  Next
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sdwright
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Posted: Feb 8, 2018 - 8:17am

 kurtster wrote:

The Nunes memo has now been corroborated by a memo from a Senate committee.  We'll see the Schiff memo shortly and get to see the other side's take on this. The Steel Dossier has been widely and totally discredited (other than the drunken rant cited) by Comey amongst others.  You do believe Comey, right ?  

Now we have "POTUS" mentioned in the texts between Page and Strzok as in "POTUS wants to know everything" Page to Strzok.

I know that I am a distinct minority of one here who believes that Trump has been framed by a very elaborate conspiracy within the Obama administration.  But it is what it is.  There, I said it.  Let the ridicule of me begin again continue as usual.

The hate for Trump is so powerful that it makes it easy to look the other way and keep this coup attempt going full steam ahead.  Had Hillary won, there would be absolutely no investigation into Russian interference in our elections because Obama already took care of it when he forcefully told Putin to "cut it out".

ymwv, of course.  

 
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Posted: Feb 8, 2018 - 7:08am

 aflanigan wrote:


This essay starts from the basis of adopting the GOP narrative behind the Nunes memo (i.e. that the investigation of Trump's campaign was based solely on the Steel dossier, which contained nothing but unconfirmed gossip), which is utterly incorrect, so not sure what's so enlightening about it.

One prime absurdity in this narrative is that the FBI organization, or individuals therein, were in the tank for Hillary Clinton, which is laughable. As former FBI Assistant Director Ron Hosko (now a Fox News personality) has pointed out, "Nothing could be further from the truth. At its core, the FBI is still a pretty conservative, right-leaning organization that tries to divorce itself of politics."

 It would be ideal I suppose if every institution in Washington was politically neutral, but people are humans. The important thing is do they do their job professionally, or do they let their biases drive their actions on the job? Peter Strozak, the guy the GOP wants to make into the leader of the "deep state" attacks on Trump, wrote the letter that was signed by Comey and released days before the election in 2016 regarding "emails that appear to be pertinent" to the previously closed investigation. 

One pundit put it best in encapsulating the inherent absurdity of the GOP narrative: "the FBI's secret plan to elect Hillary Clinton by holding a press conference to disparage her after she was cleared, while denying the existence of a very real counterintelligence probe of her opponent's campaign was really poorly executed."  

 
The Nunes memo has now been corroborated by a memo from a Senate committee.  We'll see the Schiff memo shortly and get to see the other side's take on this. The Steel Dossier has been widely and totally discredited (other than the drunken rant cited) by Comey amongst others.  You do believe Comey, right ?  

Now we have "POTUS" mentioned in the texts between Page and Strzok as in "POTUS wants to know everything" Page to Strzok.

I know that I am a distinct minority of one here who believes that Trump has been framed by a very elaborate conspiracy within the Obama administration.  But it is what it is.  There, I said it.  Let the ridicule of me begin again continue as usual.

The hate for Trump is so powerful that it makes it easy to look the other way and keep this coup attempt going full steam ahead.  Had Hillary won, there would be absolutely no investigation into Russian interference in our elections because Obama already took care of it when he forcefully told Putin to "cut it out".

ymwv, of course.  


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Posted: Feb 7, 2018 - 1:13pm

 sirdroseph wrote:
I agree which of course only makes me more suspicious.
 
it's all political buffoonery

except the part that's political absurdity

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Posted: Feb 7, 2018 - 1:00pm

 aflanigan wrote:

I pretty much agree that both parties are prone to overlooking flaws in institutions like the FBI, State dept., etc. when it suits them politically.

The essay would be more convincing if it didn't ironically come with its own dose of political bias.

 
And it also tried to paint RFK as a stooge...ignoring his transition during the 60s from a pitbull to someone with real compassion and integrity. 
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Posted: Feb 7, 2018 - 12:22pm

 black321 wrote:

I totally agree about the GOP bias...ignores the fact Carter was already being investigated before the "dossier."  And the rest of the amusing conclusions.  Still, i think many of the democrats are guilty of trying to prop up an institution with lots of historical, and likely current, flaws...they are being hypocrites just to support their positions.   Bottom line, I don't like what I see from either party coming out of all of this. 

 
I pretty much agree that both parties are prone to overlooking flaws in institutions like the FBI, State dept., etc. when it suits them politically.

The essay would be more convincing if it didn't ironically come with its own dose of political bias.
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Posted: Feb 7, 2018 - 11:45am

 Proclivities wrote:

No, I don't like what I'm seeing from either party myself.  If anything, Democrats should just focus on debunking the myth which Republicans and Fox News pundits are incessantly repeating, that "the FBI relied on the 'Steele dossier'...to obtain a top-secret court order for surveillance of former Trump adviser Carter Page" instead of jumping through hoops to defend, justify, or make excuses for FBI or DOJ abuses.

 


I agree which of course only makes me more suspicious.


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Posted: Feb 7, 2018 - 11:37am

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Posted: Feb 7, 2018 - 10:05am

 black321 wrote:

I totally agree about the GOP bias...ignores the fact Carter was already being investigated before the "dossier."  And the rest of the amusing conclusions.  Still, i think many of the democrats are guilty of trying to prop up an institution with lots of historical, and likely current, flaws...they are being hypocrites just to support their positions.   Bottom line, I don't like what I see from either party coming out of all of this. 

 
No, I don't like what I'm seeing from either party myself.  If anything, Democrats should just focus on debunking the myth which Republicans and Fox News pundits are incessantly repeating, that "the FBI relied on the 'Steele dossier'...to obtain a top-secret court order for surveillance of former Trump adviser Carter Page" instead of jumping through hoops to defend, justify, or make excuses for FBI or DOJ abuses.
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Posted: Feb 7, 2018 - 7:48am

 aflanigan wrote:
 This essay starts from the basis of adopting the GOP narrative behind the Nunes memo (i.e. that the investigation of Trump's campaign was based solely on the Steel dossier, which contained nothing but unconfirmed gossip), which is utterly incorrect, so not sure what's so enlightening about it.

One prime absurdity in this narrative is that the FBI organization, or individuals therein, were in the tank for Hillary Clinton, which is laughable. As former FBI Assistant Director Ron Hosko (now a Fox News personality) has pointed out, "Nothing could be further from the truth. At its core, the FBI is still a pretty conservative, right-leaning organization that tries to divorce itself of politics."

 It would be ideal I suppose if every institution in Washington was politically neutral, but people are humans. The important thing is do they do their job professionally, or do they let their biases drive their actions on the job? Peter Strozak, the guy the GOP wants to make into the leader of the "deep state" attacks on Trump, wrote the letter that was signed by Comey and released days before the election in 2016 regarding "emails that appear to be pertinent" to the previously closed investigation. 

One pundit put it best in encapsulating the inherent absurdity of the GOP narrative: "the FBI's secret plan to elect Hillary Clinton by holding a press conference to disparage her after she was cleared, while denying the existence of a very real counterintelligence probe of her opponent's campaign was really poorly executed."  

 
I totally agree about the GOP bias...ignores the fact Carter was already being investigated before the "dossier."  And the rest of the amusing conclusions.  Still, i think many of the democrats are guilty of trying to prop up an institution with lots of historical, and likely current, flaws...they are being hypocrites just to support their positions.   Bottom line, I don't like what I see from either party coming out of all of this. 
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Posted: Feb 7, 2018 - 7:42am

 black321 wrote:
Interesting perspective:

Democrats and FBI Abuses

 



This essay starts from the basis of adopting the GOP narrative behind the Nunes memo (i.e. that the investigation of Trump's campaign was based solely on the Steel dossier, which contained nothing but unconfirmed gossip), which is utterly incorrect, so not sure what's so enlightening about it.

One prime absurdity in this narrative is that the FBI organization, or individuals therein, were in the tank for Hillary Clinton, which is laughable. As former FBI Assistant Director Ron Hosko (now a Fox News personality) has pointed out, "Nothing could be further from the truth. At its core, the FBI is still a pretty conservative, right-leaning organization that tries to divorce itself of politics."

 It would be ideal I suppose if every institution in Washington was politically neutral, but people are humans. The important thing is do they do their job professionally, or do they let their biases drive their actions on the job? Peter Strozak, the guy the GOP wants to make into the leader of the "deep state" attacks on Trump, wrote the letter that was signed by Comey and released days before the election in 2016 regarding "emails that appear to be pertinent" to the previously closed investigation. 

One pundit put it best in encapsulating the inherent absurdity of the GOP narrative: "the FBI's secret plan to elect Hillary Clinton by holding a press conference to disparage her after she was cleared, while denying the existence of a very real counterintelligence probe of her opponent's campaign was really poorly executed."  


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Posted: Feb 7, 2018 - 7:00am

Interesting perspective:

Democrats and FBI Abuses

In the 1970s, progressives stood up for civil liberties. Today they’ve reverted to the J. Edgar Hoover era.

Only a few aging historians still remember Rep. John J. Rooney, but from the 1940s into the 1970s he was FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover’s most powerful enabler. Rooney, a Brooklyn, N.Y., Democrat, led the House appropriations subcommittee that oversaw the Justice Department. He remained Hoover’s steadfast ally as presidents from Truman through Nixon came and went.

John Rooney personified an era in which congressional Democrats eagerly aided and abetted the FBI’s running amok, as the bureau surveilled political activists who attracted Hoover’s ire. Rooney’s retirement in 1974 ushered in a radically different age, featuring rigorous and aggressive congressional oversight. A new generation of Democrats, led by principled progressives like Sen. Frank Church and Rep. Otis Pike, courageously proved ready and willing to expose and eliminate the abuse of Americans’ constitutional rights that had long been Hoover’s political bread and butter.

The Church Committee, along with decades’ worth of Freedom of Information Act releases, exposed once top-secret documents that FBI executives never imagined would see the light of day. These files detailed the scale of politically motivated misbehavior that had occurred when executive-branch controls and meaningful congressional oversight were absent. As a historian who cut his teeth on that copious record, I found it unimaginable that congressional Democrats, or American progressives generally, would ever return to championing unquestioned acceptance of FBI claims that its surveillance practices must remain hidden from the public.

But as Frank Church’s legacy faded, the FBI protested that the 21st-century bureau bore no relationship whatsoever to Hoover’s. In a 2016 speech, then-Director James Comey said that under the glass on his desk he kept a copy of a 1963 memo, signed by Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, authorizing a wiretap on Martin Luther King Jr. “I keep it there in that spot,” Mr. Comey said, “to remind me of what we in the FBI are responsible for, and what we as humans are capable of, and why it is vital that power be overseen, be constrained, be checked.”

Yet anyone eager to embrace the belief that today’s FBI is a rigorously professional and politically unbiased agency is overlooking the facts. Consider an FBI intelligence assessment from last August, obtained by Foreign Policy’s Jana Winter and Sharon Weinberger. The report warns of a new and highly dangerous domestic terrorist threat: “Black Identity Extremists.” Notwithstanding that “BIE violence has been rare over the past 20 years,” the FBI proclaimed that it had “high confidence”—defined as “high quality information from multiple sources”—that “premeditated attacks upon law enforcement” by armed African-American activists were 80% to 95% likely to occur over the following year.

Six months later no such attacks have taken place. But in a Dec. 12 raid on the Dallas home of a black activist, FBI agents did seize two firearms, along with a copy of Robert F. Williams’s well-known book “Negroes With Guns,” first published in 1962. According to a Jan. 30 report in Foreign Policy, the activist stands accused of unlawful possession of a firearm, given a previous misdemeanor conviction for domestic assault.

The same FBI knowingly relied on the “Steele dossier”—third-hand, anonymous partisan gossip about Donald Trump, brokered by a paid operative—to obtain a top-secret court order for surveillance of former Trump adviser Carter Page, an American citizen. Yet so far as we know, Mr. Page is guilty of nothing more than pursuing unsuccessful business ties in Moscow while mouthing naive platitudes about Vladimir Putin.

Worst of all, the court order for surveillance of Mr. Page was renewed three successive times at the behest of officials including Mr. Comey, the FBI’s then Deputy Director Andrew McCabe, and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein. To anyone who has studied how Hoover’s FBI worked, this continuing approval immediately calls to mind the bureau’s never-ending surveillance of King’s closest adviser, Stanley Levison. Year after year, the wiretaps of Levison produced no evidence to support the FBI’s hypothesis that he was a Soviet agent. Still, successive attorneys general, including Bobby Kennedy, readily approved the FBI’s surveillance of Levison and his family.

At first blush, Mr. Rosenstein might welcome the comparison to RFK. But the important point is that the modern Justice Department’s surveillance of law-abiding American citizens—whether in New York or Dallas—is no more defensible than the 1960s blanket coverage of Levison and King.

Yet that bright truth is, at the moment, being outshone by Democratic lawmakers’ eagerness to cover up, excuse and defend FBI behavior that their predecessors of the 1970s would have readily denounced. The ignominious irony is that judgment-blurring partisan hatred is leading many Democrats to ignore and forsake the lessons that the FBI’s history so richly teaches.

Mr. Garrow’s books include “The FBI and Martin Luther King, Jr.,” the Pulitzer Prize-winning King biography “Bearing the Cross,” and “Rising Star: The Making of Barack Obama. ”

 


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Posted: Oct 3, 2010 - 8:35am

There is a big difference between espoused values and values one lives by.

Both R's and D's espouse many values that we all agree on - unfortunately when it comes to living by them most fall way short.

So it's do as I say - not as I do. Pure poppycock.
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Posted: Oct 3, 2010 - 7:20am

 Xeric wrote:
I assumed that the reference was to *moral* values, and have thus not even stepped in here. Far too easy to imagine what a thread by that title would look like at RP. My actual answer, if that is the case: of course, Democrats have as much claim to the moral high ground as anybody else. However, as long as the majority of the public holsd the (flatly false) belief that "morality" is directly equivelent to "religious faith," then it will be Republicans (more eager to wear God on their sleeves) who will be seen as more "moral." FSM, that's discouraging.
 
{#Yes} {#Clap}

The way I see it, the "getting elected" part is purely strategic.  It's affected by moral values insofar as everybody must stoop to the level of the lowest scumbag.  Personally I can't find any reason to blame those who stoop, only that lowest scumbag who started it all.

When it comes to Republicans who openly defy the Constitution of the United States of America, and call themselves "Christians" to gain votes, I wonder what Christ Jesus would do if He returned and caught them doing this.  Remember that 2000+ years ago, Christ resorted to violence in response to mere usury.  What would Christ do about a litany of sins, with blasphemy at the very top?

I don't know what God would do to modern day Pharisees, but I bet it would be gruesome.


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Posted: Oct 2, 2010 - 7:13pm

 Mugro wrote:
Sorry to interupt your programming here, but I am not sure what "party of values" means. Can someone elighten me on this?

I thought Americans were pretty much just worried about being employed, nevermind "valued". I'm sure that someone here is going to enlighten me on this....

 


I assumed that the reference was to *moral* values, and have thus not even stepped in here. Far too easy to imagine what a thread by that title would look like at RP.

My actual answer, if that is the case: of course, Democrats have as much claim to the moral high ground as anybody else. However, as long as the majority of the public holsd the (flatly false) belief that "morality" is directly equivelent to "religious faith," then it will be Republicans (more eager to wear God on their sleeves) who will be seen as more "moral."

FSM, that's discouraging.
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Posted: Oct 2, 2010 - 11:03am

 sirdroseph wrote:

Hopefully I can help. How's this? Both parties only value is getting elected, there is no other value to be found so :



There's nothing more to see here, folks!
 
Hmmmm.... I thought so. Carry on.

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Posted: Oct 2, 2010 - 10:39am

 Mugro wrote:
Sorry to interupt your programming here, but I am not sure what "party of values" means. Can someone elighten me on this?

I thought Americans were pretty much just worried about being employed, nevermind "valued". I'm sure that someone here is going to enlighten me on this....

 
Hopefully I can help. How's this? Both parties only value is getting elected, there is no other value to be found so :



There's nothing more to see here, folks!

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Posted: Oct 2, 2010 - 10:28am

Sorry to interupt your programming here, but I am not sure what "party of values" means. Can someone elighten me on this?

I thought Americans were pretty much just worried about being employed, nevermind "valued". I'm sure that someone here is going to enlighten me on this....
kurtster

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Posted: Oct 2, 2010 - 5:08am

 Servo wrote:

That's what it looks like, barring any other surprises.  I have had a comfortable life, albeit with more than my fair share of injustices.  If you beat crushing poverty to get that sheepskin, then my hat's off to you.

What do you say about finding things that are less close to our hearts to use in discussion of this topic?

 

OK, sounds fine to me.  Would make for a better discussion in the long run.

{#Cheers}
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Posted: Oct 1, 2010 - 10:26pm

 kurtster wrote:
Nope, this is full tilt ...


 
That is the strangest car rotisserie that I've ever seen! {#Eyes}

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Posted: Oct 1, 2010 - 10:24pm

 kurtster wrote:
I guess that I have been poorer and worse off than you, eh ?  And more recently.
 
That's what it looks like, barring any other surprises.  I have had a comfortable life, albeit with more than my fair share of injustices.  If you beat crushing poverty to get that sheepskin, then my hat's off to you.

What do you say about finding things that are less close to our hearts to use in discussion of this topic?


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