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Index » Regional/Local » Elsewhere » Pernicious Pious Proclivities Particularized Prodigiously Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 153, 154, 155  Next
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RichardPrins

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Posted: Mar 30, 2015 - 12:43pm


oldviolin
ab origine
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Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Leo


Posted: Mar 30, 2015 - 7:40am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 oldviolin wrote:
A couple of things. Firstly, the existensial arguments among the beings commonly referred to as (wo)man as to the nature of a potentially objective reality commonly referred to as (a)God via wholly subjective reasoning based on what could only be construed during some form of lag time evolutionary hindsight are in fact and effect moot points at best.
The other point, both ironically and quite comically is the fact that the link provided leads to the proverbial 404 Not Found, categorically ripping the notion of everything from the sky and planting it firmly in the furrows of the receptive brow...{#Wink}

But you could imagine that such a site exists, so the site must exist.

And it must be a supremely awesome site.

Or you could peel the "http://www.radioparadise.com/" off the address and reveal its true nature, much as we see thru the veil of tears of this world to glimpse the infinite. Or remove a bandage to see the wound.

 
Exactly!{#High-five} That is the true nature of discovery. Why perpetrate (perpetuate?) notions of the unknown with ignorance for tools. Nothing is unknowable. All is revealed in time, and time is an illusion. What do we do with that? Well first, as you so logically and rightfully suggest, we pull off the bandage and redress. Second, I correct my unfortunate misspelling of the word existential in my original post comment to PSOB. Problem solved. Here we go 'round the prickly pear...{#Group-hug}


Lazy8
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Posted: Mar 30, 2015 - 7:30am

 oldviolin wrote:
A couple of things. Firstly, the existensial arguments among the beings commonly referred to as (wo)man as to the nature of a potentially objective reality commonly referred to as (a)God via wholly subjective reasoning based on what could only be construed during some form of lag time evolutionary hindsight are in fact and effect moot points at best.
The other point, both ironically and quite comically is the fact that the link provided leads to the proverbial 404 Not Found, categorically ripping the notion of everything from the sky and planting it firmly in the furrows of the receptive brow...{#Wink}

But you could imagine that such a site exists, so the site must exist.

And it must be a supremely awesome site.

Or you could peel the "http://www.radioparadise.com/" off the address and reveal its true nature, much as we see thru the veil of tears of this world to glimpse the infinite. Or remove a bandage to see the wound.
oldviolin
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Posted: Mar 30, 2015 - 7:29am

 Prodigal_SOB wrote:

Oops.  Fixed

 
No stone left unturned...{#Good-vibes}
Prodigal_SOB
Work is the curse of the drinking class
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Posted: Mar 30, 2015 - 7:27am

 oldviolin wrote:

The other point, both ironically and quite comically is the fact that the link provided leads to the proverbial 404 Not Found, categorically ripping the notion of everything from the sky and planting it firmly in the furrows of the receptive brow...{#Wink}

 
Oops.  Fixed
oldviolin
ab origine
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Posted: Mar 30, 2015 - 7:20am

 Prodigal_SOB wrote: 
A couple of things. Firstly, the existential arguments among the beings commonly referred to as (wo)man as to the nature of a potentially objective reality commonly referred to as (a)God via wholly subjective reasoning based on what could only be construed during some form of lag time evolutionary hindsight are in fact and effect moot points at best.
The other point, both ironically and quite comically is the fact that the link provided leads to the proverbial 404 Not Found, categorically ripping the notion of everything from the sky and planting it firmly in the furrows of the receptive brow...{#Wink}


Prodigal_SOB
Work is the curse of the drinking class
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Posted: Mar 30, 2015 - 6:49am

   Ontological Argument


RichardPrins

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Posted: Mar 29, 2015 - 5:44pm

 Prodigal_SOB wrote:
  I actually did post that a couple of days ago.   I just tend to think of it more as a local scandal than pernicious piety.  I could have gone with things that piss me off or business as usual too.  It really was a tough choice.
 
My condolences. {#Wink}
Prodigal_SOB
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Posted: Mar 29, 2015 - 5:15pm


  I actually did post that a couple of days ago.   I just tend to think of it more as a local scandal than pernicious piety.  I could have gone with things that piss me off or business as usual too.  It really was a tough choice.
RichardPrins

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Posted: Mar 29, 2015 - 3:26pm


RichardPrins

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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 7:10pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
I just want that focused on something that might make a difference. (...)

And writing something (like this, say) in a public forum isn't necessarily for the benefit of anyone I'm responding to. I don't have to change your mind to make this worthwhile—if anyone is still reading this that's the audience.
 
The highlighted bit is what was up for contention, at least from my perspective.

The last bit is a given and I view it the same way. Hence the add-ons, as well as the original post on this guy. In order to engage or even form an opinion you need to know what is being said or done by some people, where and how. That is, if the topic is of any concern.

People can then do with it what they like, in the range of saying he's damned right to saying he's a nobody that will soon be history and who isn't really worth paying attention to anyway, all the way up to doing something about it in whatever way they deem fit or effective. Plenty of choice.
Lazy8
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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 6:32pm

 RichardPrins wrote:
A bit of a straw man via perceived fatalism. I don't believe it's ever entirely hopeless (see my conclusion).

I am just saying don't have too much faith in the power of the holy rational argument. Rationality and reason are great esp. when you're searching for truth, and they can contribute to a debate. However, they simply may not be as effective when arguing against deeply held beliefs. At least not in the short term. And rarely in the discussion/debate itself.

There are a variety of approaches. Sometimes an emotional one may work better. And sometimes a sharp shock (e.g. via an image) gets people to realize a thing or two. Sometimes humour does the trick to get the bitter pill down. Etc., etc.

Outrage itself (see a variety of recent examples) has been known to mobilize people to take action as well.

I'm not really sure what you're actually arguing for. Or against, for that matter.

Fine, take action, however it's motivated. I just want that focused on something that might make a difference. I'm ok with different arguments (logical, emotional, in-your-face shocking imagery, whatever) but rational people should be arguing a rational point, not just making noise about the imagery in our opponents argument. That's a distraction, and too many people are falling for it.

That isn't going to change minds. Call Phil the Duck Dude out on his example and all you've done is confirm that it was effective: it got people's attention. Make him defend his actual position and he can't. He may even have to concede it, or at least sputter and flap his wings like a wounded mallard. Will that make everybody in his duck blind a Christopher Hitchens fan? Of course not, but it exposes him as the shallow thinker that he is. An effective communicator, but that's it.

And writing something (like this, say) in a public forum isn't necessarily for the benefit of anyone I'm responding to. I don't have to change your mind to make this worthwhile—if anyone is still reading this that's the audience.
Red_Dragon
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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 5:39pm

 Lazy8 wrote:


Even a bad example is an example, a teachable moment. The pity here is that the internet's outrage industry is focusing on the graphic nature of his parable rather than the faulty reasoning it represents: that all morality derives from religion.

 
I didn't miss that at all. If you lack empathy/morality it has nothing to do with your belief in an old man in the sky keeping score.
RichardPrins

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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 5:36pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
RichardPrins wrote:
I think I got it alright.

Over the years I've seen enough well-reasoned arguments that tear such fables apart, and in some places they are again being repeated in succinct comments under reports of duckman's scenario. The power of reason and rationality is overrated when dealing with such people (and obviously it isn't confined to this topic). They tend to dig in/block it out. Denial. True, as some have professed, there may be some moment in time, years from now, when for some person somewhere, all of a sudden, the penny drops, based on something they heard a long time ago.

If we treat them as hopeless cases...they are. The best way to ensure that nothing ever changes is to assume that nothing ever can.
 
A bit of a straw man via perceived fatalism. I don't believe it's ever entirely hopeless (see my conclusion).

I am just saying don't have too much faith in the power of the holy rational argument. Rationality and reason are great esp. when you're searching for truth, and they can contribute to a debate. However, they simply may not be as effective when arguing against deeply held beliefs. At least not in the short term. And rarely in the discussion/debate itself.

There are a variety of approaches. Sometimes an emotional one may work better. And sometimes a sharp shock (e.g. via an image) gets people to realize a thing or two. Sometimes humour does the trick to get the bitter pill down. Etc., etc.

Outrage itself (see a variety of recent examples) has been known to mobilize people to take action as well.
Lazy8
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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 5:05pm

RichardPrins wrote:
I think I got it alright.

Over the years I've seen enough well-reasoned arguments that tear such fables apart, and in some places they are again being repeated in succinct comments under reports of duckman's scenario. The power of reason and rationality is overrated when dealing with such people (and obviously it isn't confined to this topic). They tend to dig in/block it out. Denial. True, as some have professed, there may be some moment in time, years from now, when for some person somewhere, all of a sudden, the penny drops, based on something they heard a long time ago.

If we treat them as hopeless cases...they are. The best way to ensure that nothing ever changes is to assume that nothing ever can.
RichardPrins

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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 4:49pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
RichardPrins wrote:
Be my guest and teach. The main beef has been pointed out long before Nietzsche encapsulated it in "God is dead", but verily maybe thou knoweth how to strike the perfect tone that will finally make those who dwell in this darkness see the light of logic. {#Wink}

I think you miss my meaning.

Think of the energy expended on responses to this salvo. If it's just an extravagant exchange of outrage then no minds will change. If the forces of reason and rationality would concentrate their fire on the flaws in the argument rather than the imagery it's made of we might actually get somewhere.

But the responses will be as superficial as the outrage is contrived. The partisan furnaces get stoked and there's nothing but a smokestack beyond them. All that shoveling accomplishing nothing but cinders in the world's eyes and darker skies.
 
I think I got it alright.

Over the years I've seen enough well-reasoned arguments that tear such fables apart, and in some places they are again being repeated in succinct comments under reports of duckman's scenario. The power of reason and rationality is overrated when dealing with such people (and obviously it isn't confined to this topic). They tend to dig in/block it out. Denial. True, as some have professed, there may be some moment in time, years from now, when for some person somewhere, all of a sudden, the penny drops, based on something they heard a long time ago.
RichardPrins

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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 4:39pm

 haresfur wrote:
True, but it is too offensive to me to even point out the fallacy using the teachings of his own religion.

(given that my father always said he disproved the adage that "there are no atheists in foxholes" as he fought his way from the north end of Luzon to Manilla.)

ETA: ... then had to sit around for a couple of weeks on the outskirts so some old corn-cob smoking troop abandoner put in charge of the allied forces could make his triumphant return.
 
Deep in the bowels of this thread is an assertion that the saying really, really, really is true. All based on one person's personal experience using expert psychological insight into the minds of others serving in the same foxhole.

As with the duckman, lies need to be repeated often to become some form of truth, at least to those that are eager/desperate enough to hear it.
Lazy8
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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 4:31pm

RichardPrins wrote:
Be my guest and teach. The main beef has been pointed out long before Nietzsche encapsulated it in "God is dead", but verily maybe thou knoweth how to strike the perfect tone that will finally make those who dwell in this darkness see the light of logic. {#Wink}

I think you miss my meaning.

Think of the energy expended on responses to this salvo. If it's just an extravagant exchange of outrage then no minds will change. If the forces of reason and rationality would concentrate their fire on the flaws in the argument rather than the imagery it's made of we might actually get somewhere.

But the responses will be as superficial as the outrage is contrived. The partisan furnaces get stoked and there's nothing but a smokestack beyond them. All that shoveling accomplishing nothing but cinders in the world's eyes and darker skies.
RichardPrins

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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 4:07pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
RichardPrins wrote:
Fundie rape fantasies. Wonders if any screws are actually fastened...
'Duck Dynasty' Star Imagines Vivid Rape And Murder Scenario For Atheist Family
Ad lib: Liberals Worse Than Nazis, Led By Satan

I expect each and every Xian worldwide to condemn this mouth-breather... {#Wink}

Even a bad example is an example, a teachable moment. The pity here is that the internet's outrage industry is focusing on the graphic nature of his parable rather than the faulty reasoning it represents: that all morality derives from religion.
 
Be my guest and teach. The main beef has been pointed out long before Nietzsche encapsulated it in "God is dead", but verily maybe thou knoweth how to strike the perfect tone that will finally make those who dwell in this darkness see the light of logic. {#Wink}
haresfur
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Posted: Mar 25, 2015 - 3:20pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
RichardPrins wrote:
Fundie rape fantasies. Wonders if any screws are actually fastened...
'Duck Dynasty' Star Imagines Vivid Rape And Murder Scenario For Atheist Family
Ad lib: Liberals Worse Than Nazis, Led By Satan

I expect each and every Xian worldwide to condemn this mouth-breather... {#Wink}

Even a bad example is an example, a teachable moment. The pity here is that the internet's outrage industry is focusing on the graphic nature of his parable rather than the faulty reasoning it represents: that all morality derives from religion.

 
True, but it is too offensive to me to even point out the fallacy using the teachings of his own religion.

(given that my father always said he disproved the adage that "there are no atheists in foxholes" as he fought his way from the north end of Luzon to Manilla.)

ETA: ... then had to sit around for a couple of weeks on the outskirts so some old corn-cob smoking troop abandoner put in charge of the allied forces could make his triumphant return.


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