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Trump - islander - Jan 17, 2018 - 7:22pm
 
Annoying stuff. not things that piss you off, just annoyi... - Red_Dragon - Jan 17, 2018 - 7:12pm
 
RP Daily Trivia Challenge - BlueHeronDruid - Jan 17, 2018 - 6:38pm
 
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Best Song Comments. - haresfur - Jan 17, 2018 - 2:52pm
 
Poetry Forum - Antigone - Jan 17, 2018 - 2:44pm
 
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Photography Forum - Your Own Photos; Please Limit to 510 ... - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jan 17, 2018 - 12:42pm
 
Radio Paradise Comments - miamizsun - Jan 17, 2018 - 11:39am
 
End of the Journals ? - islander - Jan 17, 2018 - 9:45am
 
Breaking News - Proclivities - Jan 17, 2018 - 9:35am
 
Baseball, anyone? - Red_Dragon - Jan 17, 2018 - 6:27am
 
Irony 101 - miamizsun - Jan 17, 2018 - 4:37am
 
What Makes You Sad? - triskele - Jan 17, 2018 - 4:23am
 
Sick And Satired - miamizsun - Jan 17, 2018 - 4:21am
 
Reccomended System or Powered Speakers - miamizsun - Jan 17, 2018 - 4:11am
 
Counting with Pictures - ScottN - Jan 16, 2018 - 10:26pm
 
Little known information...maybe even facts - spammer - Jan 16, 2018 - 9:52pm
 
Crimes and Misdemeanors (not bad ones, mostly amusing) - ScottFromWyoming - Jan 16, 2018 - 8:05pm
 
OUR CATS!! - Red_Dragon - Jan 16, 2018 - 4:45pm
 
What Makes You Laugh? - ScottFromWyoming - Jan 16, 2018 - 3:15pm
 
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Derplahoma Questions and Points of Interest - kcar - Jan 16, 2018 - 11:08am
 
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Mobile App - Proclivities - Jan 16, 2018 - 9:31am
 
Radio Paradise on the Amazon Echo - BillG - Jan 16, 2018 - 8:50am
 
A Proposal For Haiti - cc_rider - Jan 16, 2018 - 8:38am
 
Sixth Sense and a Thankyou! - oldviolin - Jan 16, 2018 - 8:08am
 
Immigration - Red_Dragon - Jan 16, 2018 - 7:25am
 
Pernicious Pious Proclivities Particularized Prodigiously - Red_Dragon - Jan 16, 2018 - 7:15am
 
The Obituary Page - miamizsun - Jan 16, 2018 - 6:25am
 
FLAC stream - useanaim - Jan 16, 2018 - 5:04am
 
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XPRIZE & Singularity University - miamizsun - Jan 16, 2018 - 4:23am
 
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Things You Thought Today - Coaxial - Jan 15, 2018 - 6:16pm
 
Photos you have taken of your walks or hikes. - Antigone - Jan 15, 2018 - 1:28pm
 
Strange signs, marquees, billboards, etc. - ScottFromWyoming - Jan 15, 2018 - 11:53am
 
260,000 Posts in one thread? - oldviolin - Jan 15, 2018 - 11:05am
 
Freedom of speech? - miamizsun - Jan 15, 2018 - 10:04am
 
Great Old Songs You Rarely Hear Anymore - pigtail - Jan 15, 2018 - 9:41am
 
Celebrity Face Recognition - ScottFromWyoming - Jan 15, 2018 - 8:13am
 
Museum Of Bad Album Covers - ScottFromWyoming - Jan 15, 2018 - 8:11am
 
Martin Luther King day - miamizsun - Jan 15, 2018 - 6:45am
 
Same origin policy - BillG - Jan 15, 2018 - 4:10am
 
WTF??!! - ScottFromWyoming - Jan 14, 2018 - 6:26pm
 
Positive Thoughts and Prayer Requests - Coaxial - Jan 14, 2018 - 6:24pm
 
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Radio Paradise NFL Pick'em Group - lily34 - Jan 14, 2018 - 12:50pm
 
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Strips, cartoons, illustrations - Antigone - Jan 14, 2018 - 7:44am
 
Coffee - miamizsun - Jan 14, 2018 - 7:22am
 
~ Have a good joke you can post? ~ - SeriousLee - Jan 14, 2018 - 6:39am
 
WORDS OF WISDOM - oldviolin - Jan 13, 2018 - 11:16pm
 
Things that make you go Hmmmm..... - oldviolin - Jan 13, 2018 - 10:41pm
 
The War On Drugs = Fail - oldviolin - Jan 13, 2018 - 8:40am
 
What Did You Have For Breakfast? - triskele - Jan 13, 2018 - 6:33am
 
Memorials - Remembering Our Loved Ones - miamizsun - Jan 13, 2018 - 6:15am
 
Things that piss me off - SeriousLee - Jan 13, 2018 - 6:10am
 
Cryptic Posts - Leave Them Guessing - SeriousLee - Jan 13, 2018 - 3:33am
 
The Dragons' Roost - triskele - Jan 12, 2018 - 6:58pm
 
Australia has Disappeared - JrzyTmata - Jan 12, 2018 - 2:11pm
 
The Image Post - haresfur - Jan 12, 2018 - 1:45pm
 
FLAC! - siriuss - Jan 12, 2018 - 12:53pm
 
how do you feel right now? - siriuss - Jan 12, 2018 - 12:02pm
 
Paging the Californians - miamizsun - Jan 12, 2018 - 11:57am
 
Today in History - aflanigan - Jan 12, 2018 - 9:03am
 
How's the weather? - miamizsun - Jan 12, 2018 - 5:11am
 
Bug Reports & Feature Requests - KickingUpDust - Jan 12, 2018 - 4:32am
 
FLAC stream - swell_sailor - Jan 11, 2018 - 9:22pm
 
Ask the Libertarian - Lazy8 - Jan 11, 2018 - 9:19pm
 
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islander
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 7:22pm

 VV wrote:

So, by extension, it sounds like you are saying that the Mueller investigation is just an empty exercise because even impeachable results will likely not result in impeachment. I stil can’t go along with that train of thought. If there are impeachable offenses then they should be surfaced and Trump should have to answer for them. The best case scenario is that impeachment proceedings (against all odds) are initiated. If not, his already poor reputation takes a further hit and it makes it even harder for him to get reelected. I guess I‘m delusional, but I still hold onto some shred of hope that there is a limit to what people will tolerate (including some of his “base”). There is a reason that his approval rating is the lowest of any president in their first term and some of it surely has to do with the investigation. Anything that can possibly negatively influence his reelection... has my full support.
 
 

 
We're (sort of) on the same side here. I'm with you on everything you've said about trump's behaviors, policies, appointments, etc. I just don't see a clean way out of it. I'm apparently more pessimistic about his followers. Those in the unshakable 30% are lost. They didn't bail out before the election, so they are all in now.  When they rationalized all the shit early on, it became impossible for them to turn on him later. These people are all in and are not going to believe even a very strong case from Mueller. 

That doesn't mean I think it's pointless. To the contrary, follow the evidence and when he gets enough, bring the charges. But realize that the current Congress is not going to file impeachment - there is no evidence that would get them there. Maybe if congress flips to the dems, but even then there will be a shitstorm of epic proportions thrown up to block any action. And I just don't buy the blue wave BS for the senate. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are 26 dem seats up, and only 8 repubs. And many of those dem seats will be a battle. It's early and trump is strikingly unpopular, but as of now, I just don't see it. And if the senate stays republican, there will be no impeachment.   So he'll have the same shame that Clinton has, how's that tarnish holding on him?  

I'm just settling in. I don't see any way he gets ousted. So prepare for more of this. If you let it eat you up, he wins. Mobilize, keep people informed. But realize that it's not impossible for 7 more years. Let that fuel the fire to call for good candidates in 2020. He can be taken down, but not by Joe Biden. 
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 7:05pm

 islander wrote:

I just don't see a lot of options for getting rid of him. Impeachment is a long way away, and assumes the Democrats make some amazing gains in 2018 (which even with Trump 'helping' them out is a hard slog due to the math). Mueller can't move without rock solid evidence *and* a cooperative legislature, and those aren't sure things. So in the end you have 2020 as your next real chance to get rid of him unless you pull something that is against the rules of the system as it is structured now. And for whatever you want to say about him, he's not a quitter and he does know how to motivate a certain segment of the populace, so I think he's even odds or better to win 2020 as of today.

On when exactly our standing floundered, it's hard to say. I have a cousin in Luxembourg who refused to visit when Bush was pres. He did make a trip during Obama, but was still dismayed at our military adventrurism. I am looking forward to the day when we can get over the need to be "the best" and just be "our best". A few of the Europeans seem to have gotten around to this, but it seems to take 50-100 years after your peak of power.  I still think it was somewhere around the New Hampshire primary that the rest of the world started really giving us the side eye more than normal. 

 
So, by extension, it sounds like you are saying that the Mueller investigation is just an empty exercise because even impeachable results will likely not result in impeachment. I stil can’t go along with that train of thought. If there are impeachable offenses then they should be surfaced and Trump should have to answer for them. The best case scenario is that impeachment proceedings (against all odds) are initiated. If not, his already poor reputation takes a further hit and it makes it even harder for him to get reelected. I guess I‘m delusional, but I still hold onto some shred of hope that there is a limit to what people will tolerate (including some of his “base”). There is a reason that his approval rating is the lowest of any president in their first term and some of it surely has to do with the investigation. Anything that can possibly negatively influence his reelection... has my full support.
 
 
maryte
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 4:49pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
 maryte wrote:
Indeed - but part of the problem as I see it (YMMV) is that far too many people in this country think that we already are "the best."  American Exceptionalism as a primary component of what passes for patriotism these days is what has contributed to the problems this country pretends it doesn't have.

We're number one! That's why we have to be made great again.

We also have too many people certain we are suffering from problems we don't actually have. Like...an inadequate military, or a crime wave, or Sharia law breaking out, or Toxins! In our food!

The Venn diagram overlaps a great deal between people crying wolf, actual wolves, and people raising money on Kickstarter for a Save the Wolves fund.

 
{#Lol}
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 4:43pm

 maryte wrote:
Indeed - but part of the problem as I see it (YMMV) is that far too many people in this country think that we already are "the best."  American Exceptionalism as a primary component of what passes for patriotism these days is what has contributed to the problems this country pretends it doesn't have.

We're number one! That's why we have to be made great again.

We also have too many people certain we are suffering from problems we don't actually have. Like...an inadequate military, or a crime wave, or Sharia law breaking out, or Toxins! In our food!

The Venn diagram overlaps a great deal between people crying wolf, actual wolves, and people raising money on Kickstarter for a Save the Wolves fund.
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 4:05pm

 islander wrote:

I just don't see a lot of options for getting rid of him. Impeachment is a long way away, and assumes the Democrats make some amazing gains in 2018 (which even with Trump 'helping' them out is a hard slog due to the math). Mueller can't move without rock solid evidence *and* a cooperative legislature, and those aren't sure things. So in the end you have 2020 as your next real chance to get rid of him unless you pull something that is against the rules of the system as it is structured now. And for whatever you want to say about him, he's not a quitter and he does know how to motivate a certain segment of the populace, so I think he's even odds or better to win 2020 as of today.

On when exactly our standing floundered, it's hard to say. I have a cousin in Luxembourg who refused to visit when Bush was pres. He did make a trip during Obama, but was still dismayed at our military adventrurism. I am looking forward to the day when we can get over the need to be "the best" and just be "our best". A few of the Europeans seem to have gotten around to this, but it seems to take 50-100 years after your peak of power.  I still think it was somewhere around the New Hampshire primary that the rest of the world started really giving us the side eye more than normal. 

 
Indeed - but part of the problem as I see it (YMMV) is that far too many people in this country think that we already are "the best."  American Exceptionalism as a primary component of what passes for patriotism these days is what has contributed to the problems this country pretends it doesn't have.
islander
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 3:41pm

 VV wrote:

Not sure how you got "destroying the system" out of my post? I wasn't advocating any kind of destruction. I was only talking about the destruction the prez was doing. I just want Mueller to take his shot if he has one to take before any more damage is done.
 
I believe I did essentially say that we did lost our world standing so saying "Sorry to tell you" doesn't make sense when I'm the one who brought it up. It didn't start when he got the nomination but when he was elected. You can nominate any number of knuckleheads but they don't mean spit until they are elected.

 
I just don't see a lot of options for getting rid of him. Impeachment is a long way away, and assumes the Democrats make some amazing gains in 2018 (which even with Trump 'helping' them out is a hard slog due to the math). Mueller can't move without rock solid evidence *and* a cooperative legislature, and those aren't sure things. So in the end you have 2020 as your next real chance to get rid of him unless you pull something that is against the rules of the system as it is structured now. And for whatever you want to say about him, he's not a quitter and he does know how to motivate a certain segment of the populace, so I think he's even odds or better to win 2020 as of today.

On when exactly our standing floundered, it's hard to say. I have a cousin in Luxembourg who refused to visit when Bush was pres. He did make a trip during Obama, but was still dismayed at our military adventrurism. I am looking forward to the day when we can get over the need to be "the best" and just be "our best". A few of the Europeans seem to have gotten around to this, but it seems to take 50-100 years after your peak of power.  I still think it was somewhere around the New Hampshire primary that the rest of the world started really giving us the side eye more than normal. 
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 11:44am

 islander wrote:

If we had more parties and were forced to make coalition governments it might:
a) give more times between reigns of terror cycles of control.
2) when forced to make compromises in forming coalitions, some form of forgiveness for previous wrongs may come about.

 
The downside of a multi-party system is that the minor party ends up with inordinate power. Say you have three parties with two large ones and one small far right one. A large one will make a deal with the small one yanking the policies way over in their direction, even though far more people wanted results in the other direction. The large parties would rather fight each other because that's where the real threat to control is. Meanwhile the small party needs to be the disrupter because that's where their power is.

Australia's government is a coalition of Liberal and National parties. They actually have a formal agreement and campaign together so it's more like one party, but it gives the Nationals a lot of power. Probably the worst for the downside of a multiparty system is Israel. You would think that having lots of parties would balance things out but actually it makes for an incentive to splinter.

Maybe it's different in the US system than in a parliamentary one, but if I recall the biggest effect of a small party there is when one of the big ones grabs enough of their policies to keep them small. I think that is what happened with Eugene Debs. And the Libertarians for that matter.

I think the optimum is probably three or four parties but it really depends on how crazy they are. 
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 10:27am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

The soonest impeachment will happen is 2019, when and if the Democrats are in charge of both houses of congress, and a conviction requires 2/3 of the senate. That's a high bar and the next campaign season will be in full swing or nearly over by the time it's done. Time, money, energy and goodwill are better spent in finding great candidates for 2020.

 
I get that it's a long shot but I disagree that it is bad money spent. If Mueller finds sufficient evidence of collusion and brings charges then I still say damaging Trump ahead of 2020 is still reason enough to move forward with an impeachment even if it never happens. At best impeachment gains steam and he is removed or resigns before his first term is over... at worst... he is damaged and his chances of reelection become slim.
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 10:03am

 islander wrote:

I understand your concern, but if we destroy our system because we don't like the outcome, then what are we left with?

Mueller will run his course (probably), but it will take time. Look at how long it normally takes:


It is rare that it wraps up within a single term of president.

As to losing our standing in the world. Well, sorry to tell you but that horse is out of the barn, escaped the pasture, jumped the stream and was last seen headed over the hills. It all started the day he got the nomination.

 
Not sure how you got "destroying the system" out of my post? I wasn't advocating any kind of destruction. I was only talking about the destruction the prez was doing. I just want Mueller to take his shot if he has one to take before any more damage is done.
 
I believe I did essentially say that we did lost our world standing so saying "Sorry to tell you" doesn't make sense when I'm the one who brought it up. It didn't start when he got the nomination but when he was elected. You can nominate any number of knuckleheads but they don't mean spit until they are elected.
islander
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 9:40am

 VV wrote:

So in the meantime we "wait it out" while our relationships with our allies get further damaged and we lose our place at the head of the "world" table while our allies cut us out of economic and diplomatic deals because of our isolationist President? How long will it take for the next administration to try and repair the damage that this one is doing? Career diplomats have been racing for the doors since Trump became president and the brain-drain continues at an alarming rate and diplomats aren't being replaced. It's clear Trump doesn't trust/value our diplomats. He doesn't understand the part they play. The longer this goes on, the longer it will be to ever get back to the footing that we once held. I haven't even touched on the total destruction of the EPA that he is sanctioning and his stand on global warming.  

Sorry but I'm too concerned about what I see happening to say... oh well... only three more years to go. A F*ck-Up can only create more f*ck-ups.

If Mueller has the goods to get him impeached or have him tender his registration then I'm all for having him take that shot... the sooner the better.   

 
I understand your concern, but if we destroy our system because we don't like the outcome, then what are we left with?

Mueller will run his course (probably), but it will take time. Look at how long it normally takes:


It is rare that it wraps up within a single term of president.

As to losing our standing in the world. Well, sorry to tell you but that horse is out of the barn, escaped the pasture, jumped the stream and was last seen headed over the hills. It all started the day he got the nomination.
ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 9:39am

 VV wrote:

So in the meantime we "wait it out" while our relationships with our allies get further damaged and we lose our place at the head of the "world" table while our allies cut us out of economic and diplomatic deals because of our isolationist President? How long will it take for the next administration to try and repair the damage that this one is doing? Career diplomats have been racing for the doors since Trump became president and the brain-drain continues at an alarming rate and diplomats aren't being replaced. It's clear Trump doesn't trust/value our diplomats. He doesn't understand the part they play. The longer this goes on, the longer it will be to ever get back to the footing that we once held. I haven't even touched on the total destruction of the EPA that he is sanctioning and his stand on global warming.  

Sorry but I'm too concerned about what I see happening to say... oh well... only three more years to go. A F*ck-Up can only create more f*ck-ups.

If Mueller has the goods to get him impeached or have him tender his registration then I'm all for having him take that shot... the sooner the better.   
 
The soonest impeachment will happen is 2019, when and if the Democrats are in charge of both houses of congress, and a conviction requires 2/3 of the senate. That's a high bar and the next campaign season will be in full swing or nearly over by the time it's done. Time, money, energy and goodwill are better spent in finding great candidates for 2020.
VV
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 9:01am

 islander wrote:

I'm of the opinion that he was elected. Unless some one can demonstrate that he did something impeachable or he has areal mental break (no, just being nutty and contrary doesn't cut it), he gets to serve his term. That's our system. That's how we roll. For the same reasons the conservatives didn't throw out Obama when they didn't like him, and the liberals on bush, and the conservatives on Clinton... we don't get o throw out Trump. Yes he's worse, but he hasn't violated the rules, so he stays. Don't like it, change the electoral college, or some other rule, but still - You've got Trump until he wants to leave, he does something demonstrably against the rules, or he loses the next election (and kids, hang on, because if he runs again he has a really good chance at being re-elected. Look at the history here). 

I also think it's sort of a good thing. You have to take your medicine. 4 full years of colossal fuck ups will show the conservatives how much they really do need some government, and it will give the opposition time to think about finding a really good candidate. Neither side seems to have reached this point yet.  So I, as the rational stand in for America's adults volunteer us to sit outside the restaurant with the screaming toddler while everyone else in the world enjoys a nice dinner. Eventually they will settle down or grow up right?

 
So in the meantime we "wait it out" while our relationships with our allies get further damaged and we lose our place at the head of the "world" table while our allies cut us out of economic and diplomatic deals because of our isolationist President? How long will it take for the next administration to try and repair the damage that this one is doing? Career diplomats have been racing for the doors since Trump became president and the brain-drain continues at an alarming rate and diplomats aren't being replaced. It's clear Trump doesn't trust/value our diplomats. He doesn't understand the part they play. The longer this goes on, the longer it will be to ever get back to the footing that we once held. I haven't even touched on the total destruction of the EPA that he is sanctioning and his stand on global warming.  

Sorry but I'm too concerned about what I see happening to say... oh well... only three more years to go. A F*ck-Up can only create more f*ck-ups.

If Mueller has the goods to get him impeached or have him tender his registration then I'm all for having him take that shot... the sooner the better.   


islander
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 8:41am

 cc_rider wrote:

Unfortunately Trump has done neither. Hopefully the electorate will, before it ruins everyone's dinner.

 
Hey, it's only been a year (I know it seems longer). And there are only 3 to go.  Well Maybe 7 - seriously, look how bad things were when Bush got re-elected, and we weren't really in a rosy place when Obama got another shot. If the Republican party had picked some one a little better than Mittens (and Ryan), the landscape would look different. A cautionary tale - while respecting her service and the obvious nuttery in her opposition, Hillary Clinton was far from a great candidate. 
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 8:35am

 islander wrote:

I'm of the opinion that he was elected. Unless some one can demonstrate that he did something impeachable or he has areal mental break (no, just being nutty and contrary doesn't cut it), he gets to serve his term. That's our system. That's how we roll. For the same reasons the conservatives didn't throw out Obama when they didn't like him, and the liberals on bush, and the conservatives on Clinton... we don't get o throw out Trump. Yes he's worse, but he hasn't violated the rules, so he stays. Don't like it, change the electoral college, or some other rule, but still - You've got Trump until he wants to leave, he does something demonstrably against the rules, or he loses the next election (and kids, hang on, because if he runs again he has a really good chance at being re-elected. Look at the history here). 

I also think it's sort of a good thing. You have to take your medicine. 4 full years of colossal fuck ups will show the conservatives how much they really do need some government, and it will give the opposition time to think about finding a really good candidate. Neither side seems to have reached this point yet.  So I, as the rational stand in for America's adults volunteer us to sit outside the restaurant with the screaming toddler while everyone else in the world enjoys a nice dinner. Eventually they will settle down or grow up right?

 
Unfortunately Trump has done neither. Hopefully the electorate will, before it ruins everyone's dinner.
islander
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 8:35am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

Unfortunately, there's a strong element of revenge at work. This is payback for Ken Starr, that was payback for Ollie North or Watergate, I'm sure there were more episodes of back and forth... every 4–8 years, there's a wrong that needs to be righted.

 
If we had more parties and were forced to make coalition governments it might:
a) give more times between reigns of terror cycles of control.
2) when forced to make compromises in forming coalitions, some form of forgiveness for previous wrongs may come about.
islander
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 8:29am

 miamizsun wrote:

i think what steelyd and turley are in essence pointing out that this is going to be to take a long time and be extremely difficult, if not impossible

if the opposing forces waste a lot of time and resources and whiff, then it may give their opponent a sense of victory (and some leverage going into an election)

would those resources be put to better use on fielding and reinforcing a better choice in the near future?

regards
 
I'm of the opinion that he was elected. Unless some one can demonstrate that he did something impeachable or he has areal mental break (no, just being nutty and contrary doesn't cut it), he gets to serve his term. That's our system. That's how we roll. For the same reasons the conservatives didn't throw out Obama when they didn't like him, and the liberals on bush, and the conservatives on Clinton... we don't get o throw out Trump. Yes he's worse, but he hasn't violated the rules, so he stays. Don't like it, change the electoral college, or some other rule, but still - You've got Trump until he wants to leave, he does something demonstrably against the rules, or he loses the next election (and kids, hang on, because if he runs again he has a really good chance at being re-elected. Look at the history here). 

I also think it's sort of a good thing. You have to take your medicine. 4 full years of colossal fuck ups will show the conservatives how much they really do need some government, and it will give the opposition time to think about finding a really good candidate. Neither side seems to have reached this point yet.  So I, as the rational stand in for America's adults volunteer us to sit outside the restaurant with the screaming toddler while everyone else in the world enjoys a nice dinner. Eventually they will settle down or grow up right?
ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 8:27am

 miamizsun wrote:

if the opposing forces waste a lot of time and resources and whiff, then it may give their opponent a sense of victory (and some leverage going into an election)

 
Unfortunately, there's a strong element of revenge at work. This is payback for Ken Starr, that was payback for Ollie North or Watergate, I'm sure there were more episodes of back and forth... every 4–8 years, there's a wrong that needs to be righted.
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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 8:18am

 VV wrote:
Obviously, but just how much destruction are we willing to tacitly endure over the next three years? That and the fact that I really don't want Trump chirping about how great he was after he leaves office. If we can be removed before that happens, a lot of us will be able to sleep better at night.
 
i think what steelyd and turley are in essence pointing out that this is going to take a long time and be extremely difficult, if not impossible

if the opposing forces waste a lot of time and resources and whiff, then it may give their opponent a sense of victory (and some leverage going into an election)

would those resources be put to better use on fielding and reinforcing a better choice in the near future?

regards

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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 8:14am

 VV wrote:

As opposed to Trump’s normally reserved and measured demeanor?

  Good point. But The President has things like the National Guard and launch codes. I like to imagine he would be stopped before going that far, but I've been waiting for someone to stop him for quite a while now.


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Posted: Jan 17, 2018 - 7:57am

 miamizsun wrote:
i'll suggest this path again...

How do you get rid of Trump? An election, not the 25th Amendment.

The provision is in place in case a president becomes incapacitated, not to eject him from the White House if he’s loathed by the majority.

By Jonathan Turley

It appears that just as impeachment fever had started to break around the country, a 25th Amendment bug started going around. A few weeks ago, the University of Chicago’s Eric Posner argued that the “conventional understanding” of the amendment should be “enlarged” to include instances where both parties “lose confidence in the president’s ability to govern.” A Los Angeles Times reader asked, in a letter to the editor, “Why have a 25th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution if we refuse to use it” when “President Trump wrecks everything in his path?” The chatter is loud enough that, reportedly, Trump-whisperer Steve Bannon privately warned the president that opponents might try to use the 25th Amendment as a way to oust him. Trump reportedly asked him, “what’s that?”

He’s not the only one looking up the amendment, but if, as I’ve argued, impeachment would be a mistake, removing Trump via the 25th Amendment would be a disaster for our system. For Trump’s agonists, there’s an obvious solution; one they seem intent on avoiding: If you can’t stand the president, then the proper fix is electing someone else.

 
Obviously, but just how much destruction are we willing to tacitly endure over the next three years? That and the fact that I really don't want Trump chirping about how great he was after he leaves office. If we can be removed before that happens, a lot of us will be able to sleep better at night.


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