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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » Health Care Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 245, 246, 247  Next
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helenofjoy
What Day Is This?
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Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Gender: Female
Zodiac: Cancer
Chinese Yr: Pig


Posted: Oct 16, 2014 - 6:30am

 kurtster wrote:

Very well.  Let's take some thoughts into consideration.

Your primary point seems to be that the report I referred to is meaningless because it was produced by a union.  So what other sources do we have to work with currently that would be relevant to this discussion ?  I already asked if you could come up with an alternative.  I'm still waiting.  Since the only report on preparedness we have to discuss so far is from a union, we cannot have a discussion on preparedness based upon the front line worker's perspective ?  So what do we do and who's word do we take as meaningful then?

Nurses and medical professionals as a whole are a somewhat unique group.  In order to be licensed, a formal education ending with a college degree is generally required along with passing medical board examinations.  How many unions represent college educated individuals ?  Not very many that I know of.  Teachers would be another, but that is not germane to this discussion.  Once licensed, nearly all will keep their licenses current, which means keeping up their education in order to meet relicensing requirements, whether they are working or not, until they are completely retired and totally out of the workforce.  90% of nurses are female.  We do know that women will drop out of the work force to raise families and at some point may re enter at a later date.  While these women are not working, they are still licensed nurses, working or not.  This skews the per capita numbers.

For the sake of discussion let's state that there is 10% of the licensed nursing workforce is not currently working at any given time.  I suspect the number is much higher at say 20%, especially as the age increases.  When looking at want ads over the decades, the number one medical listing is for nurses, anywhere.  Based upon that assumption, I will conclude that any nurse who is not working, chooses not to work, rather than being unable to work due to a lack of available positions.  Your report you cited is credible, yet does not take into account how many are actually working, just how many are licensed, unless i read it wrong.  When I renew my license, it asks for my current place of employment.  I state that I have none, because I work only on an on call basis due to medical issues, yet I am currently licensed and in good standing.  In my profession, there are many who have left my area, seeking employment in other areas, yet keep their licenses current, because you never know and the ordeal of getting relicensed is far greater than keeping it current.  If someone wanted to poll the individual state licensing boards to find out haw many are working out of the total licensed, that can be done very easily.  Its just that someone has to do it.  I would be highly interested to see those numbers.

About the per capita per state.  Look at Texas and look at California for example.  In Texas, in order to raise the per capita to the national average of 921 RN's per, there need to be an additional 27,000 nurses to reach that average.  In California, the number is 40,000.  That reads a shortage of 67,000 nurses in just two states.  In the Cleveland Metro area with a per capita of 1,100 per, there is still an abundance of slots going unfilled, again with the premise that the only nurse not working is because she chooses to not work.  Just for S & G's let's toss in Florida which has a disproportionately aged population, there is the need for another 20,000 nurses just to reach the national average.  So in just three states, we have a minimum shortfall of nearly 90,000 nurses who could get a job in a heartbeat.  That number does not include LPN's so the number is much, much greater.  And even though we have in Cleveland / Ohio a 100 more per capita than the national average, there is still plenty of open jobs in nursing here.   And those listed are just in the local newspaper ...

So I firmly stand behind my statement that there is a profound shortage of nurses in this country and that we cannot turn them out fast enough, especially when, according to your report, fully one third of all Rn's are over the age of 50 and will soon leave the workforce permanently.

On the issue of the credibility of the report generated by the nurse's union, its all we have to work with currently, and I will state that it does have some credibility despite its organizational source, especially since we have nothing else to work with.  True we don't know what the actual questions were, yet the respondents are generally college educated as a whole.  That gives the result some valid weight, imo.

And an aside to SFW, I remember those strikes and yes they were very passionate and full of emotion and widespread nationally at that time.  You are correct that I am generally not a pro union guy.  But one of our own, mzpro works for a nurses union and has educated me on how there is a difference in the goals and practices of their union vs other unions.  You may have successfully crossed the nurses picket line, but should you try to cross a longshoreman's picket line, your fate would very likely have been much different.  

  {#Yes}


kurtster
ignore the kitteh behind the kurtain
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Location: counting flowers on the wall ...
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Libra
Chinese Yr: Dragon


Posted: Oct 16, 2014 - 3:50am

Just for S & G's here's some nursing jobs available through Monster.com

Newport Beach, CA

Dallas, Tx

Houston

Los Angeles

San Francisco 

Philly

Pittsburgh, PA

Columbus, OH

Miami, Fla.

Chicago

NYC

Boston

Wash, DC

Billings, MT

Las Vegas

Boise, Id

Danville, Va
Clearly, we do not have enough nurses, anywhere ... and in some very desirable areas to boot

your mileage will not vary


kurtster
ignore the kitteh behind the kurtain
kurtster Avatar

Location: counting flowers on the wall ...
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Libra
Chinese Yr: Dragon


Posted: Oct 16, 2014 - 2:46am

 expertTexpert wrote:

Let's supply facts to help understand what you contend, especially "they can not turn them out fast enough:"

The Current Supply of Nurses and Trends Over Time

  • There were 2.8 million RNs (including advanced practice RNs) and 690,000 LPNs in
    the nursing workforce—that is, working in the field of nursing or seeking nursing employment in 2008 to 2010. About 445,000 RNs and 166,000 LPNs lived in rural areas (about 16 percent of the RN workforce and 24 percent of the LPN workforce).

  • The nursing workforce grew substantially in the 2000s, with RNs growing by more than 500,000 (24.1 percent) and LPNs by more than 90,000 (15.5 percent).

  • Growth in the nursing workforce outpaced growth in the U.S. population. The number of RNs per 100,000 population (per capita) increased by about 14 percent, and the number of LPNs per capita increased by about 6 percent.

  • Owing to strong growth in new entrants, the absolute number of RNs younger than 30 has increased. Nevertheless, about one-third of the nursing workforce is older than 50. The average age of nurses has increased over the past decade by almost two years for RNs and 1.75 years for LPNs, reflecting aging within the very large cohort of nurses aged 41 to 50 in 2000. 

      

Based on the size of the U.S. population during the period, this equates to 921 RNs and 225 LPNs per 100,000 members of the population (per capita). 
 0

You mentioned Kent State and Cleveland. 
From this article, Ohio has 1,098.2 RNs per 100K population. (It's on page 6)
That number is greater than the per capita average, so they're not in short supply there. It's hard to know what you mean by "most locations" unless you can provide some facts to back it up.

Please note: I'm not RN-bashing. Nothing I've said here besmirches their intelligence, compassion, integrity, or importance in the delivery of health care.
My point is that the discerning reader should separate out what the NNU/CNA is saying when they read about what folks "must" do with respect to medical care.

The NNU is not a medical organization; it's a union.



 
Very well.  Let's take some thoughts into consideration.

Your primary point seems to be that the report I referred to is meaningless because it was produced by a union.  So what other sources do we have to work with currently that would be relevant to this discussion ?  I already asked if you could come up with an alternative.  I'm still waiting.  Since the only report on preparedness we have to discuss so far is from a union, we cannot have a discussion on preparedness based upon the front line worker's perspective ?  So what do we do and who's word do we take as meaningful then?

Nurses and medical professionals as a whole are a somewhat unique group.  In order to be licensed, a formal education ending with a college degree is generally required along with passing medical board examinations.  How many unions represent college educated individuals ?  Not very many that I know of.  Teachers would be another, but that is not germane to this discussion.  Once licensed, nearly all will keep their licenses current, which means keeping up their education in order to meet relicensing requirements, whether they are working or not, until they are completely retired and totally out of the workforce.  90% of nurses are female.  We do know that women will drop out of the work force to raise families and at some point may re enter at a later date.  While these women are not working, they are still licensed nurses, working or not.  This skews the per capita numbers.

For the sake of discussion let's state that there is 10% of the licensed nursing workforce is not currently working at any given time.  I suspect the number is much higher at say 20%, especially as the age increases.  When looking at want ads over the decades, the number one medical listing is for nurses, anywhere.  Based upon that assumption, I will conclude that any nurse who is not working, chooses not to work, rather than being unable to work due to a lack of available positions.  Your report you cited is credible, yet does not take into account how many are actually working, just how many are licensed, unless i read it wrong.  When I renew my license, it asks for my current place of employment.  I state that I have none, because I work only on an on call basis due to medical issues, yet I am currently licensed and in good standing.  In my profession, there are many who have left my area, seeking employment in other areas, yet keep their licenses current, because you never know and the ordeal of getting relicensed is far greater than keeping it current.  If someone wanted to poll the individual state licensing boards to find out haw many are working out of the total licensed, that can be done very easily.  Its just that someone has to do it.  I would be highly interested to see those numbers.

About the per capita per state.  Look at Texas and look at California for example.  In Texas, in order to raise the per capita to the national average of 921 RN's per, there need to be an additional 27,000 nurses to reach that average.  In California, the number is 40,000.  That reads a shortage of 67,000 nurses in just two states.  In the Cleveland Metro area with a per capita of 1,100 per, there is still an abundance of slots going unfilled, again with the premise that the only nurse not working is because she chooses to not work.  Just for S & G's let's toss in Florida which has a disproportionately aged population, there is the need for another 20,000 nurses just to reach the national average.  So in just three states, we have a minimum shortfall of nearly 90,000 nurses who could get a job in a heartbeat.  That number does not include LPN's so the number is much, much greater.  And even though we have in Cleveland / Ohio a 100 more per capita than the national average, there is still plenty of open jobs in nursing here.   And those listed are just in the local newspaper ...

So I firmly stand behind my statement that there is a profound shortage of nurses in this country and that we cannot turn them out fast enough, especially when, according to your report, fully one third of all Rn's are over the age of 50 and will soon leave the workforce permanently.

On the issue of the credibility of the report generated by the nurse's union, its all we have to work with currently, and I will state that it does have some credibility despite its organizational source, especially since we have nothing else to work with.  True we don't know what the actual questions were, yet the respondents are generally college educated as a whole.  That gives the result some valid weight, imo.

And an aside to SFW, I remember those strikes and yes they were very passionate and full of emotion and widespread nationally at that time.  You are correct that I am generally not a pro union guy.  But one of our own, mzpro works for a nurses union and has educated me on how there is a difference in the goals and practices of their union vs other unions.  You may have successfully crossed the nurses picket line, but should you try to cross a longshoreman's picket line, your fate would very likely have been much different.  


Isabeau
peep
Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female
Zodiac: Libra
Chinese Yr: Monkey


Posted: Oct 15, 2014 - 8:41pm

 expertTexpert wrote:

{#Lol}

 
{#Dancingbanana_2}
expertTexpert

expertTexpert Avatar

Location: Waiting for the van to come


Posted: Oct 15, 2014 - 8:08pm

 bokey wrote:

Our traitorous Muslim POTUS will not rest until all Americans are dead and their retirement funds are sent to his cohorts
 
{#Lol}


bokey
Bokey
bokey Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 15, 2014 - 7:12pm

 RichardPrins wrote:

Let the market or God sort it out... {#Mrgreen}

 
Our traitorous Muslim POTUS will not rest until all Americans are dead and their retirement funds are sent to his cohorts


RichardPrins
Anti-Procrustean
RichardPrins Avatar



Posted: Oct 15, 2014 - 6:26pm


Let the market or God sort it out... {#Mrgreen}
expertTexpert

expertTexpert Avatar

Location: Waiting for the van to come


Posted: Oct 15, 2014 - 3:51pm

 kurtster wrote:

With all due respect.  Nurses are in short supply in most locations.  
 
Let's supply facts to help understand what you contend, especially "they can not turn them out fast enough:"

The Current Supply of Nurses and Trends Over Time

  • There were 2.8 million RNs (including advanced practice RNs) and 690,000 LPNs in
    the nursing workforce—that is, working in the field of nursing or seeking nursing employment in 2008 to 2010. About 445,000 RNs and 166,000 LPNs lived in rural areas (about 16 percent of the RN workforce and 24 percent of the LPN workforce).

  • The nursing workforce grew substantially in the 2000s, with RNs growing by more than 500,000 (24.1 percent) and LPNs by more than 90,000 (15.5 percent).

  • Growth in the nursing workforce outpaced growth in the U.S. population. The number of RNs per 100,000 population (per capita) increased by about 14 percent, and the number of LPNs per capita increased by about 6 percent.

  • Owing to strong growth in new entrants, the absolute number of RNs younger than 30 has increased. Nevertheless, about one-third of the nursing workforce is older than 50. The average age of nurses has increased over the past decade by almost two years for RNs and 1.75 years for LPNs, reflecting aging within the very large cohort of nurses aged 41 to 50 in 2000. 

      

Based on the size of the U.S. population during the period, this equates to 921 RNs and 225 LPNs per 100,000 members of the population (per capita). 
 

You mentioned Kent State and Cleveland. 
From this article, Ohio has 1,098.2 RNs per 100K population. (It's on page 6)
That number is greater than the per capita average, so they're not in short supply there. It's hard to know what you mean by "most locations" unless you can provide some facts to back it up.

Please note: I'm not RN-bashing. Nothing I've said here besmirches their intelligence, compassion, integrity, or importance in the delivery of health care.
My point is that the discerning reader should separate out what the NNU/CNA is saying when they read about what folks "must" do with respect to medical care.

The NNU is not a medical organization; it's a union.




ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints.
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Location: Powell
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Pisces
Chinese Yr: Tiger


Posted: Oct 15, 2014 - 3:40pm

 Steely_D wrote:

That sounds right. Unions protect jobs, salaries, and working conditions. I didn't see where the nursing union was any different.

 
A long time ago I was charged with delivering a contract to the nurses' union in San Francisco, from the lawyer's office where it was drawn up. I had to cross the picket line to make the delivery and it was every bit as serious as a longshoreman's picket line.
Steely_D
Drink your big black cow and get out of here
Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay, where the Cuban gentlemen sleep all day


Posted: Oct 15, 2014 - 3:37pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

However you look at unions in general, you are incorrect that there is a fundamental difference between these different types of labor unions.

 
That sounds right. Unions protect jobs, salaries, and working conditions. I didn't see where the nursing union was any different.
ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints.
ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Pisces
Chinese Yr: Tiger


Posted: Oct 15, 2014 - 2:45pm

 kurtster wrote:
Nurse's unions do not compare to their industrial, educational and manufacturing counterparts, where job preservation is one of their primary functions.  The nurses unions are more about working conditions and safety for both the nurse and patient.  
 
lol both of you bashing unions but you make an exception in this one case. However you look at unions in general, you are incorrect that there is a fundamental difference between these different types of labor unions.
kurtster
ignore the kitteh behind the kurtain
kurtster Avatar

Location: counting flowers on the wall ...
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Libra
Chinese Yr: Dragon


Posted: Oct 15, 2014 - 2:28pm

 expertTexpert wrote:
Some of you say you work (or did work) in health care. So, you're very aware of how things like politics and funding are dressed up with terms like "for the patients."

As you read about what the National Nurses United folks are saying, don't simply take it at face value.

RoseAnn DeMoro (running the NNU - is not a nurse; she was a supermarket cashier) is also the head of the CNA (California Nurses Association).
These are union lobbying groups that do not research and define high quality health care.
Instead, they're what unions are: political organizations designed to protect their members' jobs and livelihoods.

For instance, what position does the NNU have on the recent outbreaks?
Look at the picture. The banner they choose to put right up front says "Stop blaming nurses."


As healthcare costs skyrocket and become unaffordable (it's easy to look up what's happened to affordability in the past 15 years or so) any company looking to still be affordable is going to move towards efficiencies to control costs. Because if they simply cut salaries, they won't be able to employ high-quality people. The goal is to maintain salaries but maximize performance.

A registered nurse is very well trained, so they're very expensive. Financial efficiencies to keep premiums affordable means that the company can't pay to employ an RN when an medical assistant or LVN could safely do the same job.
Therefore, RNs around the country find their jobs threatened. Hospitals need to be judicious about where they employ them - and you can't afford the premiums if a company is employing them unnecessarily.
For instance, simply putting patients from the waiting room into the exam room shouldn't be an RN job.

But NNU/CNA wants to save every RN job it can, and will emphasize that in all messages about health care delivery, including using this Ebola story as a vehicle for its politics.
So be very careful when reading what the NNU tells you "needs" to be done. They have a very specific agenda, and it's not necessarily what you think.

 
With all due respect.  Nurses are in short supply in most locations.  Currently there is desperation to recruit nurses to Dallas with a $15 to $20 per hour premium above the going rate in order to do this.  Nurses work very irregular shifts and scheduling as a rule is not done to the maximum benefit of planning and cost containment.  Nurses with good seniority generally find ways to work on an on call basis which can pay a nurse in excess of $100 per hour or more here in Cleveland as opposed to the $60 to $70 dollar norm.  Then there is overtime after 8 hours on a shift.  Kent State University, just about 10 miles down the road and a school I attended has one the highest rated nursing programs in the country.  They cannot turn them out fast enough.  The students rotate through the Cleveland hospitals as part of their schooling.

Nurse's unions do not compare to their industrial, educational and manufacturing counterparts, where job preservation is one of their primary functions.  The nurses unions are more about working conditions and safety for both the nurse and patient.  
DaveInVA
Single, unwanted, unloved eccentric, crusty ol' fart with cats
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Location: In a hovel in effluent Damnville, VA
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Leo
Chinese Yr: Buffalo


Posted: Oct 15, 2014 - 2:18pm

Just be glad you didn't get this nurse:

Italian nurse suspected of killing patients she found annoying


bokey
Bokey
bokey Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 15, 2014 - 2:16pm

 expertTexpert wrote:

But NNU/CNA wants to save every RN job it can, and will emphasize that in all messages about health care delivery, including using this Ebola story as a vehicle for its politics.
So be very careful when reading what the NNU tells you "needs" to be done. They have a very specific agenda, and it's not necessarily what you think.

 
All they care about is their paycheck.It's all about treating patients rudely and like shit.I've been through enough with Pops to KNOW how it is.

http://www.radioparadise.com/rp_2.php#name=Forums&file=showtopic&p=3662165
expertTexpert

expertTexpert Avatar

Location: Waiting for the van to come


Posted: Oct 15, 2014 - 1:51pm

Some of you say you work (or did work) in health care. So, you're very aware of how things like politics and funding are dressed up with terms like "for the patients."

As you read about what the National Nurses United folks are saying, don't simply take it at face value.

RoseAnn DeMoro (running the NNU - is not a nurse; she was a supermarket cashier) is also the head of the CNA (California Nurses Association).
These are union lobbying groups that do not research and define high quality health care.
Instead, they're what unions are: political organizations designed to protect their members' jobs and livelihoods.

For instance, what position does the NNU have on the recent outbreaks?
Look at the picture. The banner they choose to put right up front says "Stop blaming nurses."


As healthcare costs skyrocket and become unaffordable (it's easy to look up what's happened to affordability in the past 15 years or so) any company looking to still be affordable is going to move towards efficiencies to control costs. Because if they simply cut salaries, they won't be able to employ high-quality people. The goal is to maintain salaries but maximize performance.

A registered nurse is very well trained, so they're very expensive. Financial efficiencies to keep premiums affordable means that the company can't pay to employ an RN when an medical assistant or LVN could safely do the same job.
Therefore, RNs around the country find their jobs threatened. Hospitals need to be judicious about where they employ them - and you can't afford the premiums if a company is employing them unnecessarily.
For instance, simply putting patients from the waiting room into the exam room shouldn't be an RN job.

But NNU/CNA wants to save every RN job it can, and will emphasize that in all messages about health care delivery, including using this Ebola story as a vehicle for its politics.
So be very careful when reading what the NNU tells you "needs" to be done. They have a very specific agenda, and it's not necessarily what you think.
bokey
Bokey
bokey Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 15, 2014 - 1:28pm

 kurtster wrote: 
Thanks Obama.

Is it just me or does she look like Keith Richards twin sister?
kurtster
ignore the kitteh behind the kurtain
kurtster Avatar

Location: counting flowers on the wall ...
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Libra
Chinese Yr: Dragon


Posted: Oct 15, 2014 - 1:26pm

 RichardPrins wrote:
Ebola Vaccine Would Likely Have Been Found By Now If Not For Budget Cuts: NIH Director

(...) Dr. Francis Collins, the head of the National Institutes of Health, said that a decade of stagnant spending has "slowed down" research on all items, including vaccinations for infectious diseases. As a result, he said, the international community has been left playing catch-up on a potentially avoidable humanitarian catastrophe.

"NIH has been working on Ebola vaccines since 2001. It's not like we suddenly woke up and thought, 'Oh my gosh, we should have something ready here,'" Collins told The Huffington Post on Friday. "Frankly, if we had not gone through our 10-year slide in research support, we probably would have had a vaccine in time for this that would've gone through clinical trials and would have been ready."

It's not just the production of a vaccine that has been hampered by money shortfalls. Collins also said that some therapeutics to fight Ebola "were on a slower track than would've been ideal, or that would have happened if we had been on a stable research support trajectory."

"We would have been a year or two ahead of where we are, which would have made all the difference," he said.

Speaking from NIH's headquarters in Bethesda, Maryland, the typically upbeat Collins was somber when discussing efforts to control the Ebola epidemic. His days are now spent almost exclusively on the disease. But even after months of painstaking work, a breakthrough doesn't seem on the immediate horizon.

Money, or rather the lack of it, is a big part of the problem. NIH's purchasing power is down 23 percent from what it was a decade ago, and its budget has remained almost static. In fiscal year 2004, the agency's budget was $28.03 billion. In FY 2013, it was $29.31 billion — barely a change, even before adjusting for inflation. The situation is even more pronounced at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, a subdivision of NIH, where the budget has fallen from $4.30 billion in FY 2004 to $4.25 billion in FY 2013. (...)


 
Bull puckey ...

President Obama Already Has An Ebola Czar. Where Is She?

RichardPrins
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Posted: Oct 15, 2014 - 9:47am

Ebola Vaccine Would Likely Have Been Found By Now If Not For Budget Cuts: NIH Director

(...) Dr. Francis Collins, the head of the National Institutes of Health, said that a decade of stagnant spending has "slowed down" research on all items, including vaccinations for infectious diseases. As a result, he said, the international community has been left playing catch-up on a potentially avoidable humanitarian catastrophe.

"NIH has been working on Ebola vaccines since 2001. It's not like we suddenly woke up and thought, 'Oh my gosh, we should have something ready here,'" Collins told The Huffington Post on Friday. "Frankly, if we had not gone through our 10-year slide in research support, we probably would have had a vaccine in time for this that would've gone through clinical trials and would have been ready."

It's not just the production of a vaccine that has been hampered by money shortfalls. Collins also said that some therapeutics to fight Ebola "were on a slower track than would've been ideal, or that would have happened if we had been on a stable research support trajectory."

"We would have been a year or two ahead of where we are, which would have made all the difference," he said.

Speaking from NIH's headquarters in Bethesda, Maryland, the typically upbeat Collins was somber when discussing efforts to control the Ebola epidemic. His days are now spent almost exclusively on the disease. But even after months of painstaking work, a breakthrough doesn't seem on the immediate horizon.

Money, or rather the lack of it, is a big part of the problem. NIH's purchasing power is down 23 percent from what it was a decade ago, and its budget has remained almost static. In fiscal year 2004, the agency's budget was $28.03 billion. In FY 2013, it was $29.31 billion — barely a change, even before adjusting for inflation. The situation is even more pronounced at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, a subdivision of NIH, where the budget has fallen from $4.30 billion in FY 2004 to $4.25 billion in FY 2013. (...)

kurtster
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Location: counting flowers on the wall ...
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Posted: Sep 26, 2014 - 3:58am

 miamizsun wrote:


 
As both a medical professional and as a patient who sees a doctor at least once every two weeks at a world class facility, I am watching our medical system being systematically deconstructed and becoming more dysfunctional and impersonal at a rapidly accelerating pace.  And primarily as a direct result of laws and bureaucratic regulations passed under Bush 43 and Obama.

The more government gets involved, the worse it gets. 

ymmv  ... 


miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
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Posted: Sep 25, 2014 - 2:30pm


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