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westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC desert


Posted: May 29, 2017 - 10:36am

 
kcar wrote:

"Democrats are ethnic cleansing terrorists who do no really care about the poorest and most incapable among their own fellow citizens.   When it comes to American Exceptionalism, the Democrats are just as bad if not worse than the Republicans because at least the Republicans implicitly recognize that they do not care about 'others'.  "

...Aaaand there goes my interest, sailing away into the sunset. If you were willing to discuss actual health care policy and structural reform of the industry, I'd be willing to exchange thoughts with you. But you seem stuck on your need to conflate the Democrats' actions on healthcare reform with some warped notion of the party's foreign policy. This is the kind of confused thinking I ran into when I used to go to bars. Life is too short to put up with other people's nonsense. 

Let's agree to disagree. BTW the GOP supports Netanyahu and his construction projects in Palestinian territories far more than the Democrats do. Please, rant about foreign policy in the appropriate topic thread and not here. 



 
kcar,  You are clearly not familiar with the history of Democratic party support for the Israeli nation building process.

But if you are saying that Democrats have always consistently and strongly supported a single-payer system, and have not been beholden to health care sector special interests, then you are correct, I have no understanding whatsoever of US health care politics.

I will leave you in peace to finger point all you want.


miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: May 17, 2017 - 8:43am

have a look


Isabeau
peep
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Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female
Zodiac: Libra
Chinese Yr: Monkey


Posted: May 16, 2017 - 4:21pm

 miamizsun wrote:

via singularity hub

 

To create a new drug, researchers have to test tens of thousands of compounds to determine how they interact. And that’s the easy part; after a substance is found to be effective against a disease, it has to perform well in three different phases of clinical trials and be approved by regulatory bodies.

It’s estimated that, on average, one new drug coming to market can take 1,000 people, 12-15 years, and up to $1.6 billion.

 ....

As AtomWise COO Alexander Levy put it, “You can take an interaction between a drug and huge biological system and you can decompose that to smaller and smaller interactive groups. If you study enough historical examples of molecules…you can then make predictions that are extremely accurate yet also extremely fast.”

“Fast” may even be an understatement; AtomNet can reportedly screen one million compounds in a day, a volume that would take months via traditional methods.

AtomNet can’t actually invent a new drug, or even say for sure whether a combination of two molecules will yield an effective drug. What it can do is predict how likely a compound is to work against a certain illness. Researchers then use those predictions to narrow thousands of options down to dozens (or less), focusing their testing where there’s more likely to be positive results.

The software has already proven itself by helping create new drugs for two diseases, Ebola and multiple sclerosis. The MS drug has been licensed to a British pharmaceutical company, and the Ebola drug is being submitted to a peer-reviewed journal for additional analysis.

While AtomNet is a promising technology that will make discovering new drugs faster and easier, it’s worth noting that the future of medicine is also moving towards a proactive rather than reactive approach; rather than solely inventing drugs to cure sick people, focus will shift to carefully monitoring our health and taking necessary steps to keep us from getting sick in the first place.

 
Watch Big Pharma fight against it - via more PR Justified Greed from implying they do all the heavy lifting regarding drug development. But the last dozen years or so, most Pharmaceutical companies pushing to purchase, extend patents, and hike costs on formulas researched and funded by the Gubmint (gasp - 'oh no') while predominately pursuing the most expensive and rarest medicines for long term need. 
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: May 16, 2017 - 2:50pm


miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: May 16, 2017 - 5:08am

via singularity hub

 

To create a new drug, researchers have to test tens of thousands of compounds to determine how they interact. And that’s the easy part; after a substance is found to be effective against a disease, it has to perform well in three different phases of clinical trials and be approved by regulatory bodies.

It’s estimated that, on average, one new drug coming to market can take 1,000 people, 12-15 years, and up to $1.6 billion.

 



There has to be a better way—and now it seems there is. Last week, researchers published a paper detailing an artificial intelligence system made to help discover new drugs, and significantly shorten the amount of time and money it takes to do so. The system is called AtomNet, and it comes from San Francisco-based startup AtomWise. The technology aims to streamline the initial phase of drug discovery, which involves analyzing how different molecules interact with one another—specifically, scientists need to determine which molecules will bind together and how strongly. They use trial and error and process of elimination to analyze tens of thousands of compounds, both natural and synthetic. AtomNet takes the legwork out of this process, using deep learning to predict how molecules will behave and how likely they are to bind together. The software teaches itself about molecular interaction by identifying patterns, similar to how AI learns to recognize images. Remember the 3D models of atoms you made in high school, where you used pipe cleaners and foam balls to represent the connections between protons, neutrons and electrons? AtomNet uses similar digital 3D models of molecules, incorporating data about their structure to predict their bioactivity.

As AtomWise COO Alexander Levy put it, “You can take an interaction between a drug and huge biological system and you can decompose that to smaller and smaller interactive groups. If you study enough historical examples of molecules…you can then make predictions that are extremely accurate yet also extremely fast.”

“Fast” may even be an understatement; AtomNet can reportedly screen one million compounds in a day, a volume that would take months via traditional methods.

AtomNet can’t actually invent a new drug, or even say for sure whether a combination of two molecules will yield an effective drug. What it can do is predict how likely a compound is to work against a certain illness. Researchers then use those predictions to narrow thousands of options down to dozens (or less), focusing their testing where there’s more likely to be positive results.

The software has already proven itself by helping create new drugs for two diseases, Ebola and multiple sclerosis. The MS drug has been licensed to a British pharmaceutical company, and the Ebola drug is being submitted to a peer-reviewed journal for additional analysis.

While AtomNet is a promising technology that will make discovering new drugs faster and easier, it’s worth noting that the future of medicine is also moving towards a proactive rather than reactive approach; rather than solely inventing drugs to cure sick people, focus will shift to carefully monitoring our health and taking necessary steps to keep us from getting sick in the first place.




kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 14, 2017 - 7:23pm

 westslope wrote:

Well, the parallel with foreign policy is interesting no?   The Democrats support the Israeli nation building/ethnic cleansing process, the kill ratios, the nuclear weapons monopoly because they believe themselves superior.  

The important point is that Democrats are willing to hurt other inferior people outside the USA and are willing to hurt their own inferior people because their own don't live right.

Now, kcar, if you can show me polling data that says 90% of Democratic representatives and activists support a single payer system and have done so for several years then I guess I am wrong.    But from everything I read, the Democrats work just as hard for special interests as the GOP and believe in the proper incentives and do not want to in anyway hurt the pharmaceutical or biotech industries.  In other words, the Democrats want to deliver more health care to Americans but without hurting all the special interests that profit handsomely from the status quo.  

For far too many decades now, I have listened to Democrats name calling.  Diminishing others through labels, making it easier to deny services to fellow citizens or to aerial bomb foreign 'others' through labels.

Well, in the interests of advancing the 'debate, allow me to stoop to the same level of rhetoric.  Democrats are ethnic cleansing terrorists who do no really care about the poorest and most incapable among their own fellow citizens.   When it comes to American Exceptionalism, the Democrats are just as bad if not worse than the Republicans because at least the Republicans implicitly recognize that they do not care about 'others'.  

 
"Democrats are ethnic cleansing terrorists who do no really care about the poorest and most incapable among their own fellow citizens.   When it comes to American Exceptionalism, the Democrats are just as bad if not worse than the Republicans because at least the Republicans implicitly recognize that they do not care about 'others'.  "

...Aaaand there goes my interest, sailing away into the sunset. If you were willing to discuss actual health care policy and structural reform of the industry, I'd be willing to exchange thoughts with you. But you seem stuck on your need to conflate the Democrats' actions on healthcare reform with some warped notion of the party's foreign policy. This is the kind of confused thinking I ran into when I used to go to bars. Life is too short to put up with other people's nonsense. 

Let's agree to disagree. BTW the GOP supports Netanyahu and his construction projects in Palestinian territories far more than the Democrats do. Please, rant about foreign policy in the appropriate topic thread and not here. 




westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC desert


Posted: May 14, 2017 - 11:16am

 kcar wrote:



"
The problem with the 'democrats' is the narcissistic position politics.  They somehow as a group think they are superior."


I'm sorry but this is just horse——. This line of thinking is cousin to the conservative complaints about coastal "elites" looking down their noses at normal folk and beliefs that the GOP is truer to American values than the Democratic party. Dick Nixon was the past master of the politics of resentment. Reagan and the Bushes used it to justify attacks on federal programs addressing various forms of inequalities in our country. 

The Democrats are trying to address significant problems like health care access and affordability. The Republicans are hell-bent on destroying our health care system so they can give the rich an enormous tax cut. About 24 million people may lose their health insurance while the politicians on Capitol Hill will get to keep their top-notch coverage. Tell me: is that a sign that the GOP leaders think they're no better than the average American? Or is it a sign that they don't give a f—- about those of us who aren't in the 1% bracket? 

The subject here was and is health care, westslope, so you might find more response to your thoughts about foreign and military policy elsewhere. 



 
Well, the parallel with foreign policy is interesting no?   The Democrats support the Israeli nation building/ethnic cleansing process, the kill ratios, the nuclear weapons monopoly because they believe themselves superior.  

The important point is that Democrats are willing to hurt other inferior people outside the USA and are willing to hurt their own inferior people because their own don't live right.

Now, kcar, if you can show me polling data that says 90% of Democratic representatives and activists support a single payer system and have done so for several years then I guess I am wrong.    But from everything I read, the Democrats work just as hard for special interests as the GOP and believe in the proper incentives and do not want to in anyway hurt the pharmaceutical or biotech industries.  In other words, the Democrats want to deliver more health care to Americans but without hurting all the special interests that profit handsomely from the status quo.  

For far too many decades now, I have listened to Democrats name calling.  Diminishing others through labels, making it easier to deny services to fellow citizens or to aerial bomb foreign 'others' through labels.

Well, in the interests of advancing the 'debate, allow me to stoop to the same level of rhetoric.  Democrats are ethnic cleansing terrorists who do no really care about the poorest and most incapable among their own fellow citizens.   When it comes to American Exceptionalism, the Democrats are just as bad if not worse than the Republicans because at least the Republicans implicitly recognize that they do not care about 'others'.  


kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 8, 2017 - 7:09pm

 westslope wrote:

Nope.  But the water in the toilet bowl looks like somebody forgot to flush.  Yuck....  

The fire chief in Cache Creek a few minutes to the north is presumed drowned and dead.  He will be found once the muddy waters recede.  This would be a good opportunity for federal and provincial money to move the town of Cache Creek out of the flood plain.  For human safety, for the sake of salmon and steelhead spawning and rearing habitat.  It won't happen.  Channelizing the streams and dumping truck loads of rip-rap will be the preferred way of mitigating the disaster. 

haresfur:  I am not a fan of 'man makes history' (substitute person if you wish).  The problem with the 'democrats' is the narcissistic position politics.  They somehow as a group think they are superior.

Superior in the same way that Israelis believe they are intrinsically superior to the Palestinians.  

I prefer to think of Democrats as ethnically cleansing terrorists  who often show as little regard for the life of 'others' as they do for their own fellow citizens.  As a group that has trouble understanding the concept of strategic 'blow back'.  As a group that sticks to ideological positions as much as the Republicans.

Democrats are no different than Republicans in their support of Israel's regional monopoly on nuclear weapons and their willingness to inflict enormous costs on the US economy in order to guarantee that monopoly.  In fact, if anything, the thrust of diplomatic and military support has come from the Democratic party.  

On the bright side, in the event of regional nuclear war, I would expect health care to be extended to all Americans on an emergency care basis.   Maybe that is what the USA needs to come together, a regional nuclear war that takes 'climate warming' off the table and kills somewhere between 1 and 2 billion people around the world?   Large numbers of older and unhealthy Americans would be at risk.

 


"
The problem with the 'democrats' is the narcissistic position politics.  They somehow as a group think they are superior."


I'm sorry but this is just horse——. This line of thinking is cousin to the conservative complaints about coastal "elites" looking down their noses at normal folk and beliefs that the GOP is truer to American values than the Democratic party. Dick Nixon was the past master of the politics of resentment. Reagan and the Bushes used it to justify attacks on federal programs addressing various forms of inequalities in our country. 

The Democrats are trying to address significant problems like health care access and affordability. The Republicans are hell-bent on destroying our health care system so they can give the rich an enormous tax cut. About 24 million people may lose their health insurance while the politicians on Capitol Hill will get to keep their top-notch coverage. Tell me: is that a sign that the GOP leaders think they're no better than the average American? Or is it a sign that they don't give a f—- about those of us who aren't in the 1% bracket? 

The subject here was and is health care, westslope, so you might find more response to your thoughts about foreign and military policy elsewhere. 


westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC desert


Posted: May 8, 2017 - 1:05pm

 haresfur wrote:

Responsibility gets to be a murky concept. Was Bill Clinton responsible, because he missed when he lobbed a few cruise missiles at terrorist camps in Afghanistan or were the Republicans in congress responsible for condemning him for getting involved overseas? Or Bush for ignoring the security briefings when he took office? 

On another note, hope you didn't get flooded.

 
Nope.  But the water in the toilet bowl looks like somebody forgot to flush.  Yuck....  

The fire chief in Cache Creek a few minutes to the north is presumed drowned and dead.  He will be found once the muddy waters recede.  This would be a good opportunity for federal and provincial money to move the town of Cache Creek out of the flood plain.  For human safety, for the sake of salmon and steelhead spawning and rearing habitat.  It won't happen.  Channelizing the streams and dumping truck loads of rip-rap will be the preferred way of mitigating the disaster. 

haresfur:  I am not a fan of 'man makes history' (substitute person if you wish).  The problem with the 'democrats' is the narcissistic position politics.  They somehow as a group think they are superior.

Superior in the same way that Israelis believe they are intrinsically superior to the Palestinians.  

I prefer to think of Democrats as ethnically cleansing terrorists  who often show as little regard for the life of 'others' as they do for their own fellow citizens.  As a group that has trouble understanding the concept of strategic 'blow back'.  As a group that sticks to ideological positions as much as the Republicans.

Democrats are no different than Republicans in their support of Israel's regional monopoly on nuclear weapons and their willingness to inflict enormous costs on the US economy in order to guarantee that monopoly.  In fact, if anything, the thrust of diplomatic and military support has come from the Democratic party.  

On the bright side, in the event of regional nuclear war, I would expect health care to be extended to all Americans on an emergency care basis.   Maybe that is what the USA needs to come together, a regional nuclear war that takes 'climate warming' off the table and kills somewhere between 1 and 2 billion people around the world?   Large numbers of older and unhealthy Americans would be at risk.
haresfur
I get around
haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: May 7, 2017 - 4:44pm

 westslope wrote:
haresfur,

I dunno.  I have no illusions about the Democrats.  I view them as responsible for the Sept. 11th attacks on NYC, and everything that came after that.   Iraq, Afghanistan, Dae'sh, and now the election of Donald Trump as president.  
 
Responsibility gets to be a murky concept. Was Bill Clinton responsible, because he missed when he lobbed a few cruise missiles at terrorist camps in Afghanistan or were the Republicans in congress responsible for condemning him for getting involved overseas? Or Bush for ignoring the security briefings when he took office? 

On another note, hope you didn't get flooded.
Steely_D
Drink your big black cow and get out of here.
Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay, where the Cuban gentlemen sleep all day


Posted: May 7, 2017 - 2:15pm

 westslope wrote:
haresfur,

I dunno.  I have no illusions about the Democrats.  I view them as responsible for the Sept. 11th attacks on NYC, and everything that came after that.   Iraq, Afghanistan, Dae'sh, and now the election of Donald Trump as president.  
 
Reminds me of how when people asked Nader about his responsibility for getting Bush elected, he suggested that the real people responsible were the ones who voted for Bush.
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC desert


Posted: May 6, 2017 - 6:18pm

haresfur,

I dunno.  I have no illusions about the Democrats.  I view them as responsible for the Sept. 11th attacks on NYC, and everything that came after that.   Iraq, Afghanistan, Dae'sh, and now the election of Donald Trump as president.  

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 6, 2017 - 6:18pm

 Steely_D wrote:
“Nobody dies because they don’t have access to health care.”
- U.S. Rep Raul Labrador (R-Idaho)


 


{#Roflol}


This reminds me of an excellent Frontline special from 2008, "Sick Around the World." The show interviewed healthcare administrators and government officials around the world, including the President of Switzerland. Part of the quoted exchange below was used in the trailers advertising the special: 

(Frontline interviewer)  "... One of the problems we have in America is that many people — it's a huge number of people — go bankrupt because of medical bills; some studies say 700,000 people a year. How many people in Switzerland go bankrupt because of medical bills?

(Pascal Couchepin) Nobody. Doesn't happen. It would be a huge scandal if it happens.

(Frontline) Even to one?

(Couchepin) ... You go bankrupt because you're not pay your premium, 2,000 or 3,000 Swiss francs, but it is not because of that but because of your general situation. But that the normal situation become bankrupt of health costs, it would be for us something absolutely unbelievable. ...




haresfur
I get around
haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: May 6, 2017 - 4:25pm

 westslope wrote:
Thanks for the links kcar.
 
Pasted from the first one with emphasis added:

• Bill Clinton. In 1993 and 1994, Clinton — in a process spearheaded by First Lady Hillary Clinton — sought to pass a major overhaul of the health care system that would have aimed for universal coverage. Even though the Democrats controlled Congress at the time, the plan did not win enactment. 

 
Of course that was back when there was such a thing as a Southern Democrat. My theory on the failure is that the Clintons had no idea  how to work with Congress so the representatives decided to deliver a smack-down.
Steely_D
Drink your big black cow and get out of here.
Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay, where the Cuban gentlemen sleep all day


Posted: May 6, 2017 - 12:52pm

“Nobody dies because they don’t have access to health care.”
- U.S. Rep Raul Labrador (R-Idaho)
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC desert


Posted: May 6, 2017 - 9:11am

Thanks for the links kcar.
 
Pasted from the first one with emphasis added:

• Bill Clinton. In 1993 and 1994, Clinton — in a process spearheaded by First Lady Hillary Clinton — sought to pass a major overhaul of the health care system that would have aimed for universal coverage. Even though the Democrats controlled Congress at the time, the plan did not win enactment. 


kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 5, 2017 - 8:45pm

 westslope wrote:

"As for the 'compassionate' perspective that prevailed earlier....   I dunno, if that was the case, the Democrats would have implemented a single payer health system a long time ago.  Too many democrats are hung up on this and that and making sure that big Pharma rakes in huge rents.   For cutting edge bio-tech and pharma, I get it.  For the rest, not so much."
 



Actually, it's really freakin' hard to get legislative traction on universal healthcare proposals or even expansion of government-based healthcare systems like Medicare and Medicaid. According to this Politifact.com article, almost every President from FDR onwards has tried do these things. That just highlights how significant the passage of Obamacare was. 

It's not a matter of compassion, at least for the Democratic party historically. It's a matter of fighting vested interests like insurance companies, the AMA, hospital chains, and Americans skeptical of government-based healthcare systems. 


Julian Castro says seven presidents before Barack Obama sought universal health care


President Barack Obama’s health care law has been one of the most polarizing aspects of his presidency, with Republicans criticizing it at every turn. But the keynote speaker at the Democratic National Convention in Charlotte, N.C., San Antonio Mayor Julian Castro, didn’t run from it. He applauded Obama for pursuing expanded health care — and succeeding where his predecessors had failed.

"Seven presidents before him — Republicans and Democrats — tried to expand health care to all Americans," Castro said. "President Obama got it done."

We wondered whether Castro’s history was correct. So we checked with a variety of public policy and health care historians and found that Castro’s in the ballpark — but that a lot of caveats are in order.



Check out these links for more: 
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/a-brief-history-universal-health-care-efforts-in-the-us

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_health_care_reform_in_the_United_States

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2012/06/28/healthcare/QoZG14x1iMlwREEDkvJgTJ/story.html
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC desert


Posted: May 5, 2017 - 5:07pm

 Steely_D wrote:

The election of Trump - a self-proclaimed businessman - marks a significant change in leadership from compassionate to financial in focus.
Better deals! Winning!
and it ignores so much of what makes life enjoyable. Plenty of folks have few things, but enjoy their lives. Plenty of folks with mountains of things are miserable.

If we focus strictly on money, and ignore quality of life in the States, we've wasted a lot of time chasing trinkets. (That said, the health care system has to have financial viability....)

 
Not so sure.....   Financial.....  from whose perspective?   Trump has already hurt US potential GDP growth.  Cancelling the TPP trade agreement was incredibly short-sighted and completely irrational from a collective American perspective, both economically and in terms of security.

Trump seems far more worried about pleasing his base than making great financial decisions on the part of the American collective.  His training as a business man appears to have given him a zero-sum perspective where an inspired financially and economically motivated President would be looking for win-win situations where there is more cake for everybody at the end of the day.  

From the perspective of the Trump family?  That's another matter. 

As for the 'compassionate' perspective that prevailed earlier....   I dunno, if that was the case, the Democrats would have implemented a single payer health system a long time ago.  Too many democrats are hung up on this and that and making sure that big Pharma rakes in huge rents.   For cutting edge bio-tech and pharma, I get it.  For the rest, not so much.

As for the rest of your post Steely_D, I agree 100%.  Material things quickly get into the region of diminishing returns when it comes self realization or so-called 'happiness'.    People seem to believe that if something is not monetized, it has no economic value.   The economics profession begs to differ. 

I like to repeat often that the province of British Columbia is full of bohemians who live near or below the poverty line but live very well.  Why?  Because they know how to live and their 'home production' is rich.   Their human capital and often the social capital of their communities more than makes up for the apparent lack of monetized wealth.  
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 4, 2017 - 5:20pm

 Steely_D wrote:

I think using the term gatekeeper implies something along the idea of "denial."

But, there are plenty of ways for people to get answers to their concerns without needing a traditional physician visit. In the fee-for-service world, the physician wants people to come in to generate visit revenue and make his house payment.
In a pre-paid scenario where the doc is salaried, the visit isn't necessary as long as the patient is getting good care in some way.
  • Advice RNs
  • Telephone visits with the doc
  • Video visits with the doc
  • Email
  • Group visits for information (like rehab after whiplash)
  • Health Education
  • etc.

So - all of those can be looked at as "gatekeeper" maneuvers, but they're really just making sure that the MD performs up to their pay grade. Otherwise we're paying our docs to do non-doc stuff. 

  

I think we're largely talking about the same thing: providing means of patient evaluation without a full-blown visit to a doctor as well as providing ways for medical care professionals to educate the public on being healthy and doing basic self-evaluation about the need to seek professional care. 

IIRC the British healthcare system uses internists as screeners monitoring for people who don't need to see a doctor. They also help guide patients needing care to the right specialist and track the patients who progress into the system. I've seen proposals for boosting the role of nurses as such gatekeepers in the American system. I am curious to learn if that would work. 

It'll be very interesting to see how the American healthcare system changes over time. As I understand matters, American doctors face an overwhelming amount of "non-doc" stuff including paperwork, have a low level of job satisfaction and a high burnout/suicide rate. 


Skydog

Skydog Avatar

Zodiac: Aquarius


Posted: May 4, 2017 - 2:53pm

But if the Senate does adopt and pass this bill I'm sure the President will veto it.
While campaigning last year he said he would not cut Medicare, Medicaid and we would get better health care at a fraction of today's cost.
After he vetos the GOP bill him and his team, Ivanka, Jared & Bannon will write a new bill that will uphold his promises.
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what's that you say?
 

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