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cc_rider
Strange but not a stranger.
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Location: Austin Texas. Y'all.
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Cancer
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Posted: Oct 30, 2014 - 9:45am

 aflanigan wrote:

You are in impressive company.

 
Wow, that speech is quite amazing. Thank you for sharing it. And thank you for the fine compliment, however undeserved.
aflanigan
Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity
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Location: At Sea
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Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 3:53pm

 cc_rider wrote:
 I'm more inclined to think we are going to do ourselves in (and most of the other current inhabitants), one way or another, and Earth will get a few hundred thousand years to recover. 
 
You are in impressive company.
Red_Dragon
y ddraig goch ddyry gychwyn
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Location: Redneck Nation


Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 3:40pm

 cc_rider wrote:
 It could be a matter of evolution. Humans as a species are ill-equipped to handle the modern society they've created. Are humans going to evolve into a more peaceful species, as a matter of survival? That process could take many thousands of years, and the way we're going, I don't see it happening. I'm more inclined to think we are going to do ourselves in (and most of the other current inhabitants), one way or another, and Earth will get a few hundred thousand years to recover. Or maybe a handful of humans will survive, and have the good sense to learn from the destruction wrought by Man, and set aside the tribal, warlike tendencies that ultimately led to our downfall.

 
I suspect humanity is its own Great Filter.
cc_rider
Strange but not a stranger.
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Location: Austin Texas. Y'all.
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Cancer
Chinese Yr: Snake


Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 3:29pm

 aflanigan wrote:
Human nature definitely is one aspect of various intractable problems we have faced during our history, whether we are talking about nation against nation violence, or person against person/s violence. Without a doubt.

As someone with more birthday celebrations under his belt than I care to admit, I see little evidence that getting humans to be less paranoid, less xenophobic, less violent will be easily accomplished. Mental illness has stubbornly refused to go away despite all of our attempts to address it. Thus, the appeal of solutions that do not require a change of heart within the human breast (or that rely on appealing to baser human instincts, such as the survival instinct, instead of appealing to that virtually extinct notion, altruism).
  It could be a matter of evolution. Humans as a species are ill-equipped to handle the modern society they've created. Are humans going to evolve into a more peaceful species, as a matter of survival? That process could take many thousands of years, and the way we're going, I don't see it happening. I'm more inclined to think we are going to do ourselves in (and most of the other current inhabitants), one way or another, and Earth will get a few hundred thousand years to recover. Or maybe a handful of humans will survive, and have the good sense to learn from the destruction wrought by Man, and set aside the tribal, warlike tendencies that ultimately led to our downfall.


aflanigan
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Location: At Sea
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Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 3:20pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:

That shit needs to go.

 

 
Human nature definitely is one aspect of various intractable problems we have faced during our history, whether we are talking about nation against nation violence, or person against person/s violence. Without a doubt.

As someone with more birthday celebrations under his belt than I care to admit, I see little evidence that getting humans to be less paranoid, less xenophobic, less violent will be easily accomplished. Mental illness has stubbornly refused to go away despite all of our attempts to address it. Thus, the appeal of solutions that do not require a change of heart within the human breast (or that rely on appealing to baser human instincts, such as the survival instinct, instead of appealing to that virtually extinct notion, altruism).
Red_Dragon
y ddraig goch ddyry gychwyn
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Location: Redneck Nation


Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 2:19pm

 aflanigan wrote:

That's kind of like saying that when it comes to national security, the hydrogen bomb or biological/chemical weapons deliverable by warhead are not the problem. You can define the "problem" in sufficiently narrow terms such that you attribute the problem to mankind's warlike, belligerent tendencies, but that hasn't stopped the US and other countries from getting very anxious about who else besides us owns or has access to these things. I suspect part of the reason behind our fears is the sheer lethality of these devices.

Anything that generates that level of fear and anxiety on the part of politicians, and prompts international bans or attempts to ban or control proliferation, is something that can justifiably be labeled a "problem" IMO.

 

 
That shit needs to go.

 
aflanigan
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Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 1:58pm

 Coaxial wrote:

Guns are not the problem...Guns are a sum total resolution. Those predisposed to violent acts will commit violent acts regardless if a gun or an icepick is the weapon of choice. We have to get to the root of where that little voice inside stopped saying don't do that.

 
That's kind of like saying that when it comes to national security, the hydrogen bomb or biological/chemical weapons deliverable by warhead are not the problem. You can define the "problem" in sufficiently narrow terms such that you attribute the problem to mankind's warlike, belligerent tendencies, but that hasn't stopped the US and other countries from getting very anxious about who else besides us owns or has access to these things. I suspect part of the reason behind our fears is the sheer lethality of these devices.

Anything that generates that level of fear and anxiety on the part of politicians, and prompts international bans or attempts to ban or control proliferation, is something that can justifiably be labeled a "problem" IMO.

 


Coaxial
SHINE ON
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Location: 543 miles west of Paradis,1491 miles east of Paradise
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Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 11:55am

I don't have my 36 shooter anymore...My brother took it and left a .357 State Trooper in its place...Magnum rounds...He said to always take the time to put the earplugs in place...He said if I could to offer earplugs to the one about to be shot as well...Evidently it is a loud round, a very loud round.

Guns are not the problem...Guns are a sum total resolution. Those predisposed to violent acts will commit violent acts regardless if a gun or an icepick is the weapon of choice. We have to get to the root of where that little voice inside stopped saying don't do that.
aflanigan
Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity
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Location: At Sea
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Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 10:06am

 kurtster wrote:
Sad to see this topic come up for discussion only after a tragedy.

That assures discussions rooted in emotions as opposed to grounded thoughts.

The time to have the discussion is when emotions and current events do not drive the debate.

 

 
Fixing a problem via rule changes or legislation after a tragedy brings attention to the problem is a time-honored tradition in the US, actually.

See HERE

Other civilized nations have followed this model with respect to dealing with gun violence.

See HERE
But you knew that already, I'm sure.


sirdroseph
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Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 9:49am

 meower wrote:


and what might that look like considering that mental illness is a brain disorder?

 

You more than anyone should be well aware of the impact of environment on the mentally ill as well as genetics.  When dealing with brain disorders of course proper diagnosis and if deemed neccessary medication will apply and there should be some type of tie in with those whom health care professionals deem to be potentially violent and their gun purchasing rights.  The problem is this is extremely difficult to deploy without possible corruption and ineptness in the bureaucracy (who decides and how?).  The only thing I know for sure is that blanket gun control will do nothing to help these disturbed people nor will it be anything other than a minor inconvenience to them acquiring weapons of some sort if they want to bad enough and if there is anything to be gleaned from all of these tragedies is that they want to bad enough.


islander
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Location: Seattle
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Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 9:20am

 sirdroseph wrote:


And I am of the opinion that notion falls in the "too bad ain't happening" category.  It is a form of terrorism and terrorism cannot be stopped by its very definition. The only way to curb terrorism is to formulate policies that will not further isolate and persecute the population in which terrorist are created, something that I fear our government will never learn.{#Frustrated} As far as terrorism perpetuated by the mentally ill, only answer is to formulate a policy that will decrease the environment for the creation of the mentally ill (if you want to control something, how about prescription medication?).  In my opinion, background checks are a basic no brainer, but any other gun control is pissing in the wind.  Go ahead and ban them completely and see if this makes any difference, the only difference is that I and millions of other responsible gun owners will now become illegal enemies of the state and we know what happens to enemies of the state.

 
This is part of what I think the final solution will be. I think people under care for psychotic issues shouldn't own or have access to guns.  Yes I think that will limit some freedoms of responsible gun owners. But I think if you don't do something soon, eventually you will have a shift in mood and you will get to see what gun confiscation looks like - this is not something I support, and is something I specifically want to avoid.
meower

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Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 9:07am

 sirdroseph wrote:


And I am of the opinion that notion falls in the "too bad ain't happening" category.  It is a form of terrorism and terrorism cannot be stopped by its very definition. The only way to curb terrorism is to formulate policies that will not further isolate and persecute the population in which terrorist are created, something that I fear our government will never learn.{#Frustrated} As far as terrorism perpetuated by the mentally ill, only answer is to formulate a policy that will decrease the environment for the creation of the mentally ill (if you want to control something, how about prescription medication?).  In my opinion, background checks are a basic no brainer, but any other gun control is pissing in the wind.  Go ahead and ban them completely and see if this makes any difference, the only difference is that I and millions of other responsible gun owners will now become illegal enemies of the state and we know what happens to enemies of the state.

 

and what might that look like considering that mental illness is a brain disorder?
sirdroseph
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Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 8:22am

 islander wrote:

What is the correct waiting period?

In between tragedies, there seems to be little will to address the problem and those that want no change and push the narrative of "Nothing you can do to fix it" add "nothing going on to fix". 

I don't disagree that an emotional argument is not the best response. But we have had almost no response to years of incidents.  WA now has an initiative to ensure background checks on the ballot. I think this is a fine idea, but again won't address the issue. We need a method to keep guns (and knives, and bomb making supplies) away from disturbed people. We need to help those people be less disturbed while we do this.

 

And I am of the opinion that notion falls in the "too bad ain't happening" category.  It is a form of terrorism and terrorism cannot be stopped by its very definition. The only way to curb terrorism is to formulate policies that will not further isolate and persecute the population in which terrorist are created, something that I fear our government will never learn.{#Frustrated} As far as terrorism perpetuated by the mentally ill, only answer is to formulate a policy that will decrease the environment for the creation of the mentally ill (if you want to control something, how about prescription medication?).  In my opinion, background checks are a basic no brainer, but any other gun control is pissing in the wind.  Go ahead and ban them completely and see if this makes any difference, the only difference is that I and millions of other responsible gun owners will now become illegal enemies of the state and we know what happens to enemies of the state.


kurtster
ignore the kitteh behind the kurtain
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Location: counting flowers on the wall ...
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Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 8:17am

 islander wrote:

What is the correct waiting period?

In between tragedies, there seems to be little will to address the problem and those that want no change and push the narrative of "Nothing you can do to fix it" add "nothing going on to fix". 

I don't disagree that an emotional argument is not the best response. But we have had almost no response to years of incidents.  WA now has an initiative to ensure background checks on the ballot. I think this is a fine idea, but again won't address the issue. We need a method to keep guns (and knives, and bomb making supplies) away from disturbed people. We need to help those people be less disturbed while we do this.

 
I agree.  

I don't know what the solution is.  But as long as one's position on guns is a litmus test for political viability ala abortion and a seemingly endless list of other values, resolution seems unlikely.

There is a great divide on what is the function or purpose of government these days.  As long as laws are blatantly ignored and unenforced, the call for more laws seems ridiculous, at least to me.

Maybe when we reach a point where we can once again become confident that laws will be properly enforced and due process is again held in highest regard, then we can have these necessary discussions.  Until then I don't see a rational resolution being possible.
islander
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Location: Seattle
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Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 7:52am

 kurtster wrote:
Sad to see this topic come up for discussion only after a tragedy.

That assures discussions rooted in emotions as opposed to grounded thoughts.

The time to have the discussion is when emotions and current events do not drive the debate.

 

 
What is the correct waiting period?

In between tragedies, there seems to be little will to address the problem and those that want no change and push the narrative of "Nothing you can do to fix it" add "nothing going on to fix". 

I don't disagree that an emotional argument is not the best response. But we have had almost no response to years of incidents.  WA now has an initiative to ensure background checks on the ballot. I think this is a fine idea, but again won't address the issue. We need a method to keep guns (and knives, and bomb making supplies) away from disturbed people. We need to help those people be less disturbed while we do this.
kurtster
ignore the kitteh behind the kurtain
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Location: counting flowers on the wall ...
Gender: Male
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Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 7:40am

Sad to see this topic come up for discussion only after a tragedy.

That assures discussions rooted in emotions as opposed to grounded thoughts.

The time to have the discussion is when emotions and current events do not drive the debate.

 
miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
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Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 6:36am

 sirdroseph wrote:

miami, I know that you must feel like you are screaming at a wall sometimes, but I am listening and suspect that there must be others as well here that take everything you have said on this forum to heart.{#Yes}

 
thx

just random thoughts/experiences

overall i believe that things are better now than they have ever been in history

and i believe that it is going to get much better

we've still got some serious issues

the state/authoritarians are deeply embedded and they aren't going to go away very easily

we'll eventually get access to good (or better) governance, it's just going to take some time and effort

peace

sirdroseph
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Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 5:22am

 miamizsun wrote:

i agree with you, it is a "mental health" issue

please have a look at that video i posted on/in the mental health forum

and then search for the DSM, it's history and critique

fair warning: your jaw should drop and mind should be blown

we've allowed these people to create a system that is unbelievably non-scientific

docs are incentivised to create patients out of thin air and medicate/prescribe mind bending drugs with dangerous effects based on brief observation/evaluation

the docs and big pharma are creating an illegitimate industry where there was none

extremely dangerous and damaging in my opinion

we should be very concerned for everyone under the influence

regards


 
miami, I know that you must feel like you are screaming at a wall sometimes, but I am listening and suspect that there must be others as well here that take everything you have said on this forum to heart.{#Yes}
miamizsun

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Posted: Oct 29, 2014 - 4:53am

 islander wrote:

As I've said many, many times before, I believe it is truly a mental health issue. If you get to the point where it makes sense to shoot people you are clearly having a mental health problem.  But access to guns once the individual has reached that stage is what turns the crisis for the individual into a tragedy for everyone in the vicinity.  And no one seems to know how to identify the tipping point.

I really don't want to go taking guns away from people in general. But if someone is, or should be on meds for stability reasons, they shouldn't be armed. The dude that was making my cabinets 18 months ago had enough issues that he shouldn't have been armed.  We need a way to identify people who are at that level and get them help. And I want to get them help, not just disarm them. I'm as bothered by the unstable person with a sword or a bat or a board full of nails as I am the unstable person with a gun.  You shouldn't just let them walk around. This is a failing of our society. In our quest to make everything free, we have become slaves to the slogan of freedom. Can't touch this wasn't just an MC Hammer song.

 
i agree with you, it is a "mental health" issue

please have a look at that video i posted on/in the mental health forum

and then search for the DSM, it's history and critique

fair warning: your jaw should drop and mind should be blown

we've allowed these people to create a system that is unbelievably non-scientific

docs are incentivised to create patients out of thin air and medicate/prescribe mind bending drugs with dangerous effects based on brief observation/evaluation

the docs and big pharma are creating an illegitimate industry where there was none

extremely dangerous and damaging in my opinion

we should be very concerned for everyone under the influence

regards



bokey
Bokey
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Location: All Mytrialsland
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Posted: Oct 24, 2014 - 6:31pm

 ScottN wrote:

Bokey, I have been in Walter Mondale's home a couple times  (I was part of the staff that catered his daughter's wedding in the late 80's, and I met him on a flight once too..close seatmates—commercial.)  The only political memorabilia he had displayed (that I saw) was a great photo, nicely framed-Annie Leibovitz if I recall,  of he and Carter in the Oval Office....captioned — "the last honest men in Washington".

 
That's a great post.{#High-five}

 

 
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