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oldviolin
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Location: esse quam videri
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Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 4:27pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:

If we're going to start waxing philosophical... when you get right down to it there are two things that motivate humans: love and fear. I'm trying hard to cleave to the former.

 
Interestingly, the word you chose to use as meaning to remain faithful has of course another definition which is to split or divide by a cutting blow. It is so hard to grasp sometimes; how a murderous heart can rule an otherwise healthy individual...murder being the ultimate expression of fear and hatred...And love? Who's to say what love can do unless you allow it into your heart?


Red_Dragon
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Location: Republican Jesusland


Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 12:44pm

 miamizsun wrote:

there are several issues

misusing guns is a symptom

licensing owners/users with guns or cars doesn't guarantee favorable results

plenty of horrible drivers, abuses and fatalities

same with guns, drugs, moral behavior, etc

if we are talking about root causes (imho) we should start by addressing the violent conditioning in our culture

what incentive or motivation does someone have to initiate violence on another peaceful person? or not?

seems our culture is steeped from cradle to grave in the belief that initiating violence is the way to solve problems

politicians love wars on stuff and the masses clamor to be saved from evil

coercion for the greater good

 
If we're going to start waxing philosophical... when you get right down to it there are two things that motivate humans: love and fear. I'm trying hard to cleave to the former.
Lazy8
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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 12:44pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:
Maybe guns should be taxed as well. Especially when the cost of gun violence is considered.

Exactly. If The State becomes what you fear it will and decides to send us all to the FEMA camps they'll do it regardless of the number of guns we do or don't own.

I know I'll never change your mind on this, peace - out.

If you want to change my mind you have to understand what that mind is thinking, by listening to what it's saying.

You seem to be assuming some opinions/fears on my part that don't exist. I'm not worried about black helicopters or FEMA camps. I am afraid of arbitrary laws enforced by time-serving bureaucrats. I'm afraid of governments assuming more and more power. That isn't something I'm afraid will happen, it already has. There are already way too many excuses to kick people's doors down, already too many excuses to mark them as menaces to society, already too many ways to ruin them financially, emotionally, socially. Too many people in jail.

Guns are already taxed. So is ammo. Some of these taxes have been in place for almost a century.

You want to do something about "gun violence" (I guess all other forms of violence are ok, or maybe you'll get to those later)—fine. Do something. But why is it that the only thing anyone ever seems to think of doing is imposing more burdens and risks on people who aren't part of the problem?

Is it really because you think it will be effective—despite all the evidence to the contrary—or is it just that you want the government to enforce your fear/hatred/animus?

If you really want to reduce the level of violence in our society (something that is happening all by itself, generally without the imposition of new laws) then try applying a little more creativity. Think outside the prison cell. Think about ways to put fewer people in situations where they turn to violence. Think about reforming sentencing laws. Think about making the police less violent and more helpful so people won't be afraid to turn to them. Think about making seeking psychological help more appealing to the people who need it rather than marking them for life.

Think about turning fewer people into criminals, not more.


oldviolin
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Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 12:28pm

 miamizsun wrote:

there are several issues

misusing guns is a symptom

licensing owners/users with guns or cars doesn't guarantee favorable results

plenty of horrible drivers, abuses and fatalities

same with guns, drugs, moral behavior, etc

if we are talking about root causes (imho) we should start by addressing the violent conditioning in our culture

what incentive or motivation does someone have to initiate violence on another peaceful person? or not?

seems our culture is steeped from cradle to grave in the belief that initiating violence is the way to solve problems

politicians love wars on stuff and the masses clamor to be saved from evil

coercion for the greater good

 
Oh wait! So you're saying that everything under the sun should be available to people, and that choice should always be unlimited and the bad will eventually push a higher good because humanity is basically good to begin with? Or, that by giving over to a control entity that responsibility, man will utilize better self control. You know, it would be real easy at that point for deception to rule. Seems like I read stories about that kind of thing.

Hey, I just solved the chicken/egg thing. The egg was here first because it contained everything the chicken was going to be, but not what the chicken chose for sustenance when eventually there were no choices except what it was allowed. In the end you could argue that it either starved to death or was eaten itself.

The choices we make as individuals in the human race count for infinitely more than the man-made numbers reveal...

The saying goes; "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". Seems they always have, one and the other.

I think it might go "Guns don't kill people, poverty of the spirit kills people, making so grey the line between a good choice and a bad choice that one seems like the other.

Kahlil Gibran describes it this way in The Wanderer:

Garments

Upon a day Beauty and Ugliness met on the shore of a sea. And they said to one another, "Let us bathe in the sea."

Then they disrobed and swam in the waters. And after a while Ugliness came back to shore and garmented himself with the garments of Beauty and walked away.

And Beauty too came out of the sea, and found not her raiment, and she was too shy to be naked, therefore she dressed herself with the raiment of Ugliness. And Beauty walked her way.

And to this very day men and women mistake the one for the other.

Yet some there are who have beheld the face of Beauty, and they know her notwithstanding her garments. And some there be who know the face of Ugliness, and the cloth conceals him not from their eyes.


{#Good-vibes}




RichardPrins
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Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 12:06pm

 ScottN wrote:
If true, and I suspect it is, this "fact" becomes a very powerful driver for keeping weapons (especially highly lethal weapons)  as unavailable as possible.  Nuclear arms right down to assault weapons with 100 round canister or banana clips.  We can still have our shotguns/rifles for hunting, or  handguns for personal protection. 

What social engineering might accomplish is to create a (admittedly somewhat utopian) society where there are fewer reasons to be worried about preservation, and which do not systemically create anger and frustration (e.g. inequality in various arenas of life).
miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 12:04pm

 RichardPrins wrote:

Violence is a symptom (of deep-seated anger/frustration or simply preservation). You're not likely to remove it from our species through any form of social engineering. Fight or flight.

 
"The fight-or-flight response (also called the fight, flight, freeze, or fawn response PTSD>, hyperarousal, or the acute stress response) is a physiological reaction that occurs in response to a perceived harmful event, attack, or threat to survival."

reacting to violence is legitimate (hopefully in a less than lethal way)

i'm concerned with the initiation of violence on peaceful people

regards

ScottN
"Thought for today" has been postponed until tomorrow.
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Location: An inch above the K/T boundary. But smth near fracking still has appeal.
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Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 11:54am

 miamizsun wrote:

there are several issues

misusing guns is a symptom

...
 
Overly simplistic, imo.  Just as reasonable to say "misusing guns is the result of malevolent intent to achieve lethal goals."

Not reasonable?  To do nothing.
ScottN
"Thought for today" has been postponed until tomorrow.
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Location: An inch above the K/T boundary. But smth near fracking still has appeal.
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Aries
Chinese Yr: Buffalo


Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 11:45am

 RichardPrins wrote:

Violence is a symptom (of deep-seated anger/frustration or simply preservation). You're not likely to remove it from our species through any form of social engineering. Fight or flight.

 
If true, and I suspect it is, this "fact" becomes a very powerful driver for keeping weapons (especially highly lethal weapons)  as unavailable as possible.  Nuclear arms right down to assault weapons with 100 round canister or banana clips.  We can still have our shotguns/rifles for hunting, or  handguns for personal protection.


islander
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Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 11:33am

 miamizsun wrote:

there are several issues

misusing guns is a symptom

licensing owners/users with guns or cars doesn't guarantee favorable results

plenty of horrible drivers, abuses and fatalities

same with guns, drugs, moral behavior, etc

if we are talking about root causes (imho) we should start by addressing the violent conditioning in our culture

what incentive or motivation does someone have to initiate violence on another peaceful person? or not?

seems our culture is steeped from cradle to grave in the belief that initiating violence is the way to solve problems

politicians love wars on stuff and the masses clamor to be saved from evil

coercion for the greater good

 
Where do we start?  Or do we just say that since the first cave man picked up a club it's in our nature and we just have to shrug it off?
RichardPrins
Ni dieu ni maître
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Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 11:33am

 miamizsun wrote:
there are several issues

misusing guns is a symptom

licensing owners/users with guns or cars doesn't guarantee favorable results

plenty of horrible drivers, abuses and fatalities

same with guns, drugs, moral behavior, etc

if we are talking about root causes (imho) we should start by addressing the violent conditioning in our culture

what incentive or motivation does someone have to initiate violence on another peaceful person? or not?

seems our culture is steeped from cradle to grave in the belief that initiating violence is the way to solve problems

politicians love wars on stuff and the masses clamor to be saved from evil

coercion for the greater good
 
Violence is a symptom (of deep-seated anger/frustration or simply preservation). You're not likely to remove it from our species through any form of social engineering. Fight or flight.
miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 11:02am

 islander wrote:

Charged vs. convicted.

Here is where we start to have the breakdown on who should have access to guns and when it is appropriate and how we go about removing guns from people that previously were okay to posses them.   The only workable solution I see is gun registration and a lot of people have issues with that so it is always an instant "NO".

But much like the looming confederate flag issue we are witnessing. We will soon pass a threshold of public opinion and the resulting swing in restrictions will be much larger. The gun lobby really needs to step up here and offer some workable solution. 

 
there are several issues

misusing guns is a symptom

licensing owners/users with guns or cars doesn't guarantee favorable results

plenty of horrible drivers, abuses and fatalities

same with guns, drugs, moral behavior, etc

if we are talking about root causes (imho) we should start by addressing the violent conditioning in our culture

what incentive or motivation does someone have to initiate violence on another peaceful person? or not?

seems our culture is steeped from cradle to grave in the belief that initiating violence is the way to solve problems

politicians love wars on stuff and the masses clamor to be saved from evil

coercion for the greater good


islander
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islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 10:57am

 Lazy8 wrote:
Red_Dragon wrote:
Cars are registered and their ownership and licensing tracked from the day they're manufactured to the day they're crushed to be recycled. One must have a state-issued license to operate them. Why are guns any different? Cars are machines designed for transportation that can be very dangerous if not operated responsibly. Guns are machines designed for killing.

Cars are registered so they can be taxed, in large part to pay for the bureaucracy that registers and taxes them, but to some extent to pay for the public roads they drive on (the vast majority of the cost of roads is paid for with fuel taxes). If it isn't driven on public roads it doesn't need to be registered at all. The registrations expire and cars change hands all the time with no paperwork.

One must have a state-issued license to drive them on public roads. Keep the car on private property and you don't need a license. Anyone—licensed to drive or not—can buy, own, or even build a car.

The state doesn't have to build or operate any facilities for people to own guns.

Registering guns (where it's done) is a very effective way of keeping lists of people who don't commit crimes with guns. We have enough lists like that. It creates yet another opportunity for someone causing no harm to anyone to be sent off to prison. We have enough laws like that too.
 
I'd be fine with an exception that let people not register guns if they were never in public space.  Keep it on private property for home defense and we're good, bring it to the pub or theater and I'd like to know that if you just got a prescription to quiet the voices in your head that some one checked to see if you have a firearm available to you. 
Red_Dragon
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Location: Republican Jesusland


Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 10:46am

 Lazy8 wrote:


Cars are registered so they can be taxed, in large part to pay for the bureaucracy that registers and taxes them, but to some extent to pay for the public roads they drive on (the vast majority of the cost of roads is paid for with fuel taxes). If it isn't driven on public roads it doesn't need to be registered at all. The registrations expire and cars change hands all the time with no paperwork.

One must have a state-issued license to drive them on public roads. Keep the car on private property and you don't need a license. Anyone—licensed to drive or not—can buy, own, or even build a car.

The state doesn't have to build or operate any facilities for people to own guns.

Registering guns (where it's done) is a very effective way of keeping lists of people who don't commit crimes with guns. We have enough lists like that. It creates yet another opportunity for someone causing no harm to anyone to be sent off to prison. We have enough laws like that too.
 
Maybe guns should be taxed as well. Especially when the cost of gun violence is considered.

Exactly. If The State becomes what you fear it will and decides to send us all to the FEMA camps they'll do it regardless of the number of guns we do or don't own.

I know I'll never change your mind on this, peace - out. 
Lazy8
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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 10:34am

Red_Dragon wrote:
Cars are registered and their ownership and licensing tracked from the day they're manufactured to the day they're crushed to be recycled. One must have a state-issued license to operate them. Why are guns any different? Cars are machines designed for transportation that can be very dangerous if not operated responsibly. Guns are machines designed for killing.

Cars are registered so they can be taxed, in large part to pay for the bureaucracy that registers and taxes them, but to some extent to pay for the public roads they drive on (the vast majority of the cost of roads is paid for with fuel taxes). If it isn't driven on public roads it doesn't need to be registered at all. The registrations expire and cars change hands all the time with no paperwork.

One must have a state-issued license to drive them on public roads. Keep the car on private property and you don't need a license. Anyone—licensed to drive or not—can buy, own, or even build a car.

The state doesn't have to build or operate any facilities for people to own guns.

Registering guns (where it's done) is a very effective way of keeping lists of people who don't commit crimes with guns. We have enough lists like that. It creates yet another opportunity for someone causing no harm to anyone to be sent off to prison. We have enough laws like that too.

ScottN
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Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 10:31am

 islander wrote:

When there is finally enough pressure to overcome this kind of resistance, The move is going to be severe and we may actually see some of the confiscation stuff that people are unnecessarily worried about now. 

 
With 200M+ guns in circulation in the USA now, too many extraordinarily lethal, I think confiscation is out of the question as a practical matter.  But, even though a properly cared for weapon has a verrry long life of utility, we have to start somewhere, sometime.  I think the registration proposal (as with autos, suggested below) is a reasonable start. Now is a reasonable time.


islander
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Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 10:20am

 ScottN wrote:

As the Smiths song asks: How soon is now?

When you say it's gonna happen now
Well, when exactly do you mean?
See, I've already waited too long
And all my hope is gone

The people who think 100 round canisters for assault rifles is reasonable personal protection hold sway, and will for the future I am likely to experience.

 
When there is finally enough pressure to overcome this kind of resistance, The move is going to be severe and we may actually see some of the confiscation stuff that people are unnecessarily worried about now. 
ScottN
"Thought for today" has been postponed until tomorrow.
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Location: An inch above the K/T boundary. But smth near fracking still has appeal.
Gender: Male
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Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 10:08am

 islander wrote:

Charged vs. convicted.

Here is where we start to have the breakdown on who should have access to guns and when it is appropriate and how we go about removing guns from people that previously were okay to posses them.   The only workable solution I see is gun registration and a lot of people have issues with that so it is always an instant "NO".

But much like the looming confederate flag issue we are witnessing. We will soon pass a threshold of public opinion and the resulting swing in restrictions will be much larger. The gun lobby really needs to step up here and offer some workable solution. 

 
As the Smiths song asks: How soon is now?

When you say it's gonna happen now
Well, when exactly do you mean?
See, I've already waited too long
And all my hope is gone

The people who think 100 round canisters for assault rifles is reasonable personal protection hold sway, and will for the future I am likely to experience.


Red_Dragon
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Location: Republican Jesusland


Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 9:56am

 islander wrote:

Seems reasonable to me. But there are people who will say "2nd amendment" and believe that registration=confiscation (like the NSA doesn't already have a cross reference list of anyone who has ever purchased ammo...).

 
Yeah I know - I used to be one of them. While I was one of them, every Democrat elected to the white house was going to confiscate all our guns and lock us up in FEMA camps. *snore*
islander
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Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 9:51am

 Red_Dragon wrote:

Cars are registered and their ownership and licensing tracked from the day they're manufactured to the day they're crushed to be recycled. One must have a state-issued license to operate them. Why are guns any different? Cars are machines designed for transportation that can be very dangerous if not operated responsibly. Guns are machines designed for killing.

 
Seems reasonable to me. But there are people who will say "2nd amendment" and believe that registration=confiscation (like the NSA doesn't already have a cross reference list of anyone who has ever purchased ammo...).
Red_Dragon
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Location: Republican Jesusland


Posted: Jun 23, 2015 - 9:48am

 islander wrote:

Charged vs. convicted.

Here is where we start to have the breakdown on who should have access to guns and when it is appropriate and how we go about removing guns from people that previously were okay to posses them.   The only workable solution I see is gun registration and a lot of people have issues with that so it is always an instant "NO".

But much like the looming confederate flag issue we are witnessing. We will soon pass a threshold of public opinion and the resulting swing in restrictions will be much larger. The gun lobby really needs to step up here and offer some workable solution. 

 
Cars are registered and their ownership and licensing tracked from the day they're manufactured to the day they're crushed to be recycled. One must have a state-issued license to operate them. Why are guns any different? Cars are machines designed for transportation that can be very dangerous if not operated responsibly. Guns are machines designed for killing.
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