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ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints.
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Location: Powell
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Pisces
Chinese Yr: Tiger


Posted: Sep 22, 2014 - 11:03am

 nook wrote:

or mattress ticking.  No plastic shells around here.  Black powder muzzleloading smoothbore flintlock shotgun, double barreled of course.  lots of fun, and you really have to want to shoot that poor defenseless pheasant for dinner because it takes so long to load.

 

 
Attack of the Unpleasant Pheasant!
miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 22, 2014 - 10:38am

 Red_Dragon wrote:

Then there'd be paper patches everywhere.

 
and birds would eat them...
nook

Location: gone
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Leo
Chinese Yr: Horse


Posted: Sep 22, 2014 - 10:38am

 Red_Dragon wrote:

Then there'd be paper patches everywhere.

 
or mattress ticking.  No plastic shells around here.  Black powder muzzleloading smoothbore flintlock shotgun, double barreled of course.  lots of fun, and you really have to want to shoot that poor defenseless pheasant for dinner because it takes so long to load.

 
ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints.
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Location: Powell
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Pisces
Chinese Yr: Tiger


Posted: Sep 22, 2014 - 10:27am

 cc_rider wrote:

Well, I'm shooting at my own place, so if I don't pick 'em up, I'll probably run 'em over with the lawnmower eventually. I'll pick 'em up.
 

 
I wish people at my house could understand this concept
 
Maybe when they start mowing the lawn themselves.

 
Look what I found with the lawnmower! by Scott & Justine fromWyo, on Flickr

Red_Dragon
y ddraig goch ddyry gychwyn
Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Redneck Nation


Posted: Sep 22, 2014 - 10:23am

 miamizsun wrote:

could always bring back the muzzle loader/blunderbuss...

 
Then there'd be paper patches everywhere.
cc_rider
Strange but not a stranger.
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Location: Austin Texas. Y'all.
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Cancer
Chinese Yr: Snake


Posted: Sep 22, 2014 - 10:20am

 islander wrote:

From my trap range days, there is a fixed number of times you can reload shotgun shells before the plastic fatigues and fails. But there are a bunch of satrurday morning shooters who would love them.  

I appreciate your efforts though - I don't long for the good ole days where everybody carried a side arm and littering was tolerated < /snark >.  

 
Well, I'm shooting at my own place, so if I don't pick 'em up, I'll probably run 'em over with the lawnmower eventually. I'll pick 'em up.
 
ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints.
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Location: Powell
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Pisces
Chinese Yr: Tiger


Posted: Sep 22, 2014 - 9:52am

 kurtster wrote:
Just a random thought.  As a kid it was no big deal to go stumbling through fields and what not and find spent shotgun shells.

Now they are as rare as hen's teeth.  Too precious to leave behind.  Things can have a way of taking care of themselves. 

 
A place to shoot birds is too precious to litter up. I can go out in the badlands and find piles of shells, but not so much anywhere near a farm/field because if it's not posted no hunting, it soon will be if it gets abused.
miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 22, 2014 - 9:50am

 islander wrote:

From my trap range days, there is a fixed number of times you can reload shotgun shells before the plastic fatigues and fails. But there are a bunch of satrurday morning shooters who would love them.  

I appreciate your efforts though - I don't long for the good ole days where everybody carried a side arm and littering was tolerated < /snark >.  

 
could always bring back the muzzle loader/blunderbuss...
islander
Dog is my copilot
islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: Sep 22, 2014 - 9:40am

 cc_rider wrote:

They are? I have a bunch somebody can have. Do they reload 'em, or just sell the brass?

 
From my trap range days, there is a fixed number of times you can reload shotgun shells before the plastic fatigues and fails. But there are a bunch of satrurday morning shooters who would love them.  

I appreciate your efforts though - I don't long for the good ole days where everybody carried a side arm and littering was tolerated < /snark >.  
cc_rider
Strange but not a stranger.
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Location: Austin Texas. Y'all.
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Cancer
Chinese Yr: Snake


Posted: Sep 22, 2014 - 8:03am

 kurtster wrote:
Just a random thought.  As a kid it was no big deal to go stumbling through fields and what not and find spent shotgun shells.

Now they are as rare as hen's teeth.  Too precious to leave behind.  Things can have a way of taking care of themselves. 

 
They are? I have a bunch somebody can have. Do they reload 'em, or just sell the brass?
kurtster
ignore the kitteh behind the kurtain
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Location: counting flowers on the wall ...
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Libra
Chinese Yr: Dragon


Posted: Sep 20, 2014 - 4:57pm

Just a random thought.  As a kid it was no big deal to go stumbling through fields and what not and find spent shotgun shells.

Now they are as rare as hen's teeth.  Too precious to leave behind.  Things can have a way of taking care of themselves. 
ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints.
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Location: Powell
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Pisces
Chinese Yr: Tiger


Posted: Aug 28, 2014 - 2:04pm

 K_Love wrote:

Okay, fine.

 
I was just amused that they re-tasked some tot-loks to make those. We have 'em on our kitchen cabinets...
K_Love

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Gender: Female
Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: Aug 28, 2014 - 2:02pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

so make one:

Tot-lok

 
Okay, fine.
ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints.
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Location: Powell
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Pisces
Chinese Yr: Tiger


Posted: Aug 28, 2014 - 10:30am

 K_Love wrote:
OOOOOoooooh, I want the 1410 (2nd one)!

 

 
so make one:

Tot-lok
K_Love

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Gender: Female
Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: Aug 28, 2014 - 10:14am

OOOOOoooooh, I want the 1410 (2nd one)!

 


sirdroseph
Endeavor to Perservere
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Location: Yes
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Sagittarius
Chinese Yr: Dragon


Posted: Aug 21, 2014 - 9:52am

Huey P. Newton Gun Club Pushes #BlackOpenCarry to Protest Police Violence
sirdroseph
Endeavor to Perservere
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Location: Yes
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Sagittarius
Chinese Yr: Dragon


Posted: Aug 6, 2014 - 8:57am


DaveInVA
Single, unwanted, unloved eccentric, crusty ol' fart with cats
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Location: In a hovel in effluent Damnville, VA
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Leo
Chinese Yr: Buffalo


Posted: Jul 26, 2014 - 4:50pm

EMILY MILLER: Federal judge rules DC ban on gun carry rights unconstitutional


miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 23, 2014 - 1:31pm

apparently this is what a silencer on a shotgun sounds like


Lazy8
human
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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 16, 2014 - 11:03pm

aflanigan wrote:
I did make an objection. See the link in my previous post.
The lady claiming 52 DGUs in a year was simply exemplary of the manifold problems associated with self-reported data.

See HERE (I understand Kleck has taken exception with Hemenway's opinion of his survey data in his 2000 book Armed, but haven't been able to find an abstract of his criticisms; perhaps you can summarize?), and a more recent revision of the same critique, seemingly published after Kleck's book, HERE

Have a safe weekend!


Sorry to take so long to get back to this, been some life going on. Plus I had to read some papers.

This response from Kleck to Hemenway, for instance. It wasn't that hard to find. It's a good read, and it lays bare some of the confirmation bias (and just plain political bias) in some of the attacks on Kleck and his work. Its tone is a little strident; perhaps understandable given the vilification Kleck and his coauthors received after the publication of thier first survey.

To Hemenway's strongest point, that the survey data likely overestimate the number of wounded attackers Kleck has some solid arguments: namely that there are likely to be errors in both directions. In some of the jurisdictions people were surveyed in defending yourself with a weapon is a crime. Anybody who answered in the positive would have to overcome the suspicion that their answer would not be kept confidential. The upside to being truthful for the respondent is vanishingly small; the downside is the possibility of a long stretch in prison. Not an incentive to overreport.

Similarly Hemenway's assumption that every wounded attacker would show up in emergency room statistics is naive at best. Criminals (especially career criminals) would be aware that that emergency room visit would be reported to the police. They have a very strong incentive to avoid that.

I will readily concede that a good many of those who said they wounded an attacker may be wrong. Hitting something that isn't standing still (and may be armed as well), likely in the dark, and very much interested in not being hit is harder than it looks on TV. Hitting a man-sized target at the shooting range in good light with both hands on the gun and nothing at stake is hard enough that it regularly humiliates people. Doing that under stress, with no time to prepare, after interrupted sleep is much harder. That could also account for some of the "missing" wounded. But does that mean that nothing happened that night at all? An encounter where a shot was fired would be pretty traumatic and hard to forget. Overestimating one's prowess with a gun that night you shot at an intruder is a lot more likely than misremembering whether or not you shot at an intruder at all.
 
Data has noise in it. This is unavoidable. We have no way but surveys to collect this data. This isn't a new problem or one unique to this issue. Noise puts error bars around the data, but it doesn't make it go away.

You probably won't read the link above. It's a long article and you won't agree with its conclusions. I'll just quote a snippet here:

            The NSDS estimates were subsequently strongly confirmed by yet another large-sample national survey, sponsored by the National Institute of Justice (NIJ), and conducted under the auspices of the Police Foundation. We can be certain that Hemenway knew about this survey because he served on the NIJ Advisory Committee for the project and was thanked for his comments on a draft of the grant report describing the survey’s findings, including its DGU estimates (Cook and Ludwig 1997, p. x). Kleck was the principle consultant on the Police Foundation survey, wrote most of the associated grant proposal and most of the questionnaire, and participated in numerous meetings with Hemenway and Cook.

            Hemenway did not mention the results of this survey in his critique, perhaps for an understandable reason: it almost exactly confirmed the NSDS results. The NSDS yielded an estimate of 2.55 million DGUs, using a person-based one-year estimate (Kleck and Gertz 1995, p. 184). The most comparable estimate generated by the Police Foundation survey was 2.45 million, well within sampling error of the NSDS estimate. Many variants of this estimate were even higher (Cook and Ludwig 1997, p. 62).

Hemenway himself had ample opportunity, as a member of the Advisory Committee, to suggest solutions to problems he saw in this survey, or to suggest other steps “to reduce the bias or to validate the findings by external measures,” and to show that DGUs are really far less common than so many surveys have indicated. When the Police Foundation survey almost exactly confirmed the NSDS results, Hemenway’s response was to suddenly decide that surveys inevitably overstate DGU frequency.

This appears to be a very recent revelation to Hemenway. In repeated and prolonged meetings of the Advisory Committee in 1994, during which the members discussed at length the long series of questions asking about DGUs, Hemenway did not once share his remarkable theory that all that effort was for naught, and that surveys could not generate even approximately accurate estimates of DGU frequency.

Philip Cook, who also served on the same committee, likewise underwent the same sudden conversion, after the Police Foundation survey yielded DGU estimates every bit as large as those of the NSDS and earlier surveys. Since no new evidence bearing on the ability of surveys to estimate this parameter had come to light since 1994, one can only wonder how and why these revelations came so belatedly to Cook and Hemenway. Cynics might suspect that, metaphorically speaking, once they found they could not win the game, they decided to take their ball and go home.




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