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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » Guns Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 390, 391, 392  Next
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aflanigan
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Posted: Mar 9, 2015 - 9:46am

Interesting. This put me in mind of the discussion L8 and I had last year regarding the credibility of DGU claims, and of the prevalent NRA justification for unrestricted gun ownership based on personal defense needs.

Why live in the real world when you can make one up that justifies your politics?

Gun rights-advocating local Fox reporter has told different versions of ‘home invasion


kurtster
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Posted: Mar 2, 2015 - 5:06pm


.223 Remington

Evidently pistols that shoot .223 rounds have been around since at least 2007, which is the earliest reference I can find.  But these are not Saturday Night Specials.  Nor are they cheap at $ 665 and up.  So what is the big deal all of a sudden ?  How many crimes have been committed with one of these ?  Few and far between, I bet.

 CLICKY HERE   and    HERE   and HERE



The above is the shortest barrel offered at 7".  10" or longer is the standard.  This is not a weapon easily concealed.  No shoulder holsters for these puppies.  Can't stuff them down the front of your pants, etc.  One handed shooting not an option.  Surely not the weapon of choice for knocking over a 7 / 11.  

The move to ban the ammo reeks of politics with total disregard for facts, as usual ...

More reading ...

DEVILISH DETAILS BEHIND OBAMA'S BULLET BAN

ATF Moves to Ban M855 And SS109 5.56 Ammunition



Lazy8
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Posted: Mar 2, 2015 - 3:41pm

haresfur wrote:
Reading the snopes article and skimming the ATF FRAMEWORK FOR DETERMINING WHETHER CERTAIN PROJECTILES ARE “PRIMARILY INTENDED FOR SPORTING PURPOSES” WITHIN THE MEANING OF 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C) - this isn't the case of reclassifying anything. It's a case of withdrawing an exemption because circumstances have changed. Perfectly reasonable.

Nevermind what do you think you need these for that outweighs the risks to law enforcement and the general populace?

The "primarily for sporting purposes" exemption is just that—an exemption, which M855 ammo doesn't need, as it doesn't meet the criteria in the law in the first place.

The risk to law enforcement and the general public is insignificant, in that
  1. Just about any hunting rifle cartridge (explicitly exempt from the law) will penetrate a bulletproof vest
  2. The general populace doesn't wear them, and in many jurisdictions are prohibited from possessing them
  3. Rifles are used in about 4% of the firearms murders in the US
  4. The law has no effect on people willing to shoot cops
The law was intended to apply to handgun ammunition. It  came about because of a moral panic over "cop killer bullets", a term invented by people who know even less about firearms than the general public. The ATF thought it saw a sliver of daylight it could sneak this change thru because somebody somewhere chambered a pistol in the same caliber as the AR-15. I've never seen one of these and it would be a ridiculously impractical device, but there ya go.


Coaxial
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Posted: Mar 2, 2015 - 3:35pm

I sold my brother my 36 shooter and he left me one of these just because...He gave me two sets of ear plugs and said I should take the time to put mine on and offer them to anyone about to be shot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_28
haresfur
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Posted: Mar 2, 2015 - 3:15pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
aflanigan wrote:
The information labeled false in this is the claim that Obama initiated the change. I don't know how the nice people at Snopes could know that, since ATF is part of the executive branch and it proving it would mean proving a negative. If the initiative had originated during the previous administration that would work, but nobody is making that claim.

What is clear is that ATF is reclassifying ammunition as "armor piercing" in contradiction to the legal definiton of the term, as spelled out in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C):

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

Part (C) doesn't allow any wiggle room here—the Attorney General can exempt ammo from the list, but can't add it.

The new rule applies to several different projectiles, none of which meet the above definition—the SS109/M855 uses a steel tip on a copper-jacketed lead core. Its replacement, the M855A1, doesn't meet it either.

Whatever the eventual outcome this isn't as significant as Fox News (or likely the Obama administration) wants it to be. Most M855 ammo goes to the military and most civilian ammo uses expanding bullets, which the military is prohibited from using by the Geneva Convention. The appeal is that (because of the high volumes) M855 is relatively inexpensive. This is more an attempt to harass and annoy opponents and score some political points with the Democratic base than seriously impede exercise of the 2nd amendment. It's a chickens!t move, but hardly the descent of black helicopters.

 
Reading the snopes article and skimming the ATF FRAMEWORK FOR DETERMINING WHETHER CERTAIN PROJECTILES ARE “PRIMARILY INTENDED FOR SPORTING PURPOSES” WITHIN THE MEANING OF 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C) - this isn't the case of reclassifying anything. It's a case of withdrawing an exemption because circumstances have changed. Perfectly reasonable.

Nevermind what do you think you need these for that outweighs the risks to law enforcement and the general populace? 
Lazy8
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Posted: Mar 2, 2015 - 3:07pm

aflanigan wrote:
You win the internets today! Congratulations.

Have the Koch brothers send the check to the usual address.
aflanigan
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Posted: Mar 2, 2015 - 3:03pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
aflanigan wrote:
Neither I nor the Mikkelsons said that posters on RP were making false/exaggerated claims. Snopes tends to deal with stuff spreading on twitter, email, facebook, etc. You know, social media.

Forgive me, I thought you were actually trying to refute something someone said instead of posting a non sequitur. My mistake.

 
You win the internets today! Congratulations.
Lazy8
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Posted: Mar 2, 2015 - 2:47pm

aflanigan wrote:
Neither I nor the Mikkelsons said that posters on RP were making false/exaggerated claims. Snopes tends to deal with stuff spreading on twitter, email, facebook, etc. You know, social media.

Forgive me, I thought you were actually trying to refute something someone said instead of posting a non sequitur. My mistake.
aflanigan
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Posted: Mar 2, 2015 - 2:41pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
aflanigan wrote:
Yes, somebody somewhere said that. Just nobody you were responding to.

 
Neither I nor the Mikkelsons said that posters on RP were making false/exaggerated claims. Snopes tends to deal with stuff spreading on twitter, email, facebook, etc. You know, social media. 
Lazy8
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Posted: Mar 2, 2015 - 2:34pm

aflanigan wrote:
Yes, somebody somewhere said that. Just nobody you were responding to.
aflanigan
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Posted: Mar 2, 2015 - 2:27pm

 Lazy8 wrote:


Let's see...

ATF is part of the Treasury Dept., which is part of the executive branch, which Barack Obama is in charge of. How could this not be called an action by the executive branch? It's not an Executive Order, but then nobody (at least in the train of articles linked to so far) has said it was.
 
See here.
http://www.tpnn.com/2015/02/27/obama-to-ban-popular-ar-15-bullets-via-executive-order/ 


Lazy8
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Posted: Mar 2, 2015 - 1:31pm

aflanigan wrote:
You're overlooking the explicit "Obama is using Executive Actions" claim, which appears to have no basis in fact. I also think it's entirely appropriate for them to challenge the explicit claim that it was "initiated" by Obama. I could just as easily point out that you are asking the Mikkelsons to prove a negative by proving that Obama didn't personally order this.

Shockingly, most agency decisions that involve this sort of bureaucratic deliberation, public comment period, input from interested parties, etc., do not involve any intervention or participation from the WH. Federal agencies have a bureaucratic mission that is set forth in statue, code, etc. and they regularly take the initiative to try and fulfill their mission without coordinating with the president personally (or with his political advisers). I know there are some posters here on RP that believe Obama to be some sort of supraman who has his fingers in every pie and personally steers every single decision in every executive branch agency for some nefarious purpose, but I hadn't counted you among them.

Let's see...

ATF is part of the Treasury Dept., which is part of the executive branch, which Barack Obama is in charge of. How could this not be called an action by the executive branch? It's not an Executive Order, but then nobody (at least in the train of articles linked to so far) has said it was.

He explicitly promised such actions on 1/16/13 ("several years ago"). If you didn't get that memo it's still up on the White House web site. Here, I'll skip past the "do it for the children" stuff and get right to the point:

On January 16, 2013, the President put forward a specific plan to protect our children and communities by reducing gun violence. The plan combines executive actions and calls for legislative action that would help keep guns out of the wrong hands, ban assault and high-capacity magazines, make our schools safer, and increase access to mental health services.

Did he personally order ATF to ban this ammo? I doubt it. I doubt he ever heard of it or has any idea what it is. Did he order his administration to lash out like this? Well, he said he did. I'm taking him at his word.
aflanigan
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Posted: Mar 2, 2015 - 1:15pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
The information labeled false in this is the claim that Obama initiated the change. I don't know how the nice people at Snopes could know that, since ATF is part of the executive branch and it proving it would mean proving a negative. If the initiative had originated during the previous administration that would work, but nobody is making that claim.

What is clear is that ATF is reclassifying ammunition as "armor piercing" in contradiction to the legal definiton of the term, as spelled out in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C):

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

Part (C) doesn't allow any wiggle room here—the Attorney General can exempt ammo from the list, but can't add it.

The new rule applies to several different projectiles, none of which meet the above definition—the SS109/M855 uses a steel tip on a copper-jacketed lead core. Its replacement, the M855A1, doesn't meet it either.

Whatever the eventual outcome this isn't as significant as Fox News (or likely the Obama administration) wants it to be. Most M855 ammo goes to the military and most civilian ammo uses expanding bullets, which the military is prohibited from using by the Geneva Convention. The appeal is that (because of the high volumes) M855 is relatively inexpensive. This is more an attempt to harass and annoy opponents and score some political points with the Democratic base than seriously impede exercise of the 2nd amendment. It's a chickens!t move, but hardly the descent of black helicopters.

 
You're overlooking the explicit "Obama is using Executive Actions" claim, which appears to have no basis in fact. I also think it's entirely appropriate for them to challenge the explicit claim that it was "initiated" by Obama. I could just as easily point out that you are asking the Mikkelsons to prove a negative by proving that Obama didn't personally order this.

Shockingly, most agency decisions that involve this sort of bureaucratic deliberation, public comment period, input from interested parties, etc., do not involve any intervention or participation from the WH. Federal agencies have a bureaucratic mission that is set forth in statue, code, etc. and they regularly take the initiative to try and fulfill their mission without coordinating with the president personally (or with his political advisers). I know there are some posters here on RP that believe Obama to be some sort of supraman who has his fingers in every pie and personally steers every single decision in every executive branch agency for some nefarious purpose, but I hadn't counted you among them. 
Lazy8
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Posted: Mar 2, 2015 - 11:30am

aflanigan wrote:
The information labeled false in this is the claim that Obama initiated the change. I don't know how the nice people at Snopes could know that, since ATF is part of the executive branch and it proving it would mean proving a negative. If the initiative had originated during the previous administration that would work, but nobody is making that claim.

What is clear is that ATF is reclassifying ammunition as "armor piercing" in contradiction to the legal definiton of the term, as spelled out in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C):

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

Part (C) doesn't allow any wiggle room here—the Attorney General can exempt ammo from the list, but can't add it.

The new rule applies to several different projectiles, none of which meet the above definition—the SS109/M855 uses a steel tip on a copper-jacketed lead core. Its replacement, the M855A1, doesn't meet it either.

Whatever the eventual outcome this isn't as significant as Fox News (or likely the Obama administration) wants it to be. Most M855 ammo goes to the military and most civilian ammo uses expanding bullets, which the military is prohibited from using by the Geneva Convention. The appeal is that (because of the high volumes) M855 is relatively inexpensive. This is more an attempt to harass and annoy opponents and score some political points with the Democratic base than seriously impede exercise of the 2nd amendment. It's a chickens!t move, but hardly the descent of black helicopters.
aflanigan
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Posted: Mar 2, 2015 - 10:18am

 DaveInVA wrote: 
Fact check:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ammoban.asp
 


DaveInVA
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Posted: Feb 26, 2015 - 1:10pm

ATF pushes bullet ban, threatens top-selling AR-15 rifle


haresfur
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Posted: Jan 8, 2015 - 2:21pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
So anyway, just ranting. That dealer is a terrorist, IMO. A vile human being capable of nearly anything in defense of his "beliefs."
 
:speechless 
Coaxial
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Posted: Jan 8, 2015 - 1:44pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

His email tagline is "Every time I start my Harley, Jesus kills a hippie." Aren't Harleys and hippies sort of, you know,  ? 

 
Wow...Sorry about what this asshole did to your friend...Karma has a way of dealing with people like this.
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Posted: Jan 8, 2015 - 1:26pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
On Dec. 11, a local guy went missing. He was on a suicide watch with the local behavioral health center, and his brother, who I grew up with and worked briefly in this office with, had gone to his home and taken all of the guns out. The guy made no secret of his wishes, and the family was scrambling to get him more secure, but that was apparently a few days coming. I don't know how background checks work, but his decline was fairly precipitous and maybe it takes time to show up in the database. I don't know. Anyway, he'd gotten his last two guns at a particular dealer, so his girlfriend went in there to tell them the situation and cried/pleaded with them not to sell him a gun. They in fact got a visit from the man a day later, ordered in a .38 derringer and delivered it. They found the guy last week. His girlfriend went to the shop to apologize for making a scene and the shop owner lost his shit and started screaming at her from across the store that she was a crazy bitch who drove the guy to take his own life.

We say we have to have a system where people who want guns should be able to get them, but those who shouldn't have them can't get them. But here's a case where the shop owner clearly had more than enough information —but not a law— to guide him in his decision to sell, but he ignored that information and took the money. But he'll be first in line to protest a law telling him how to run his business. He'll be the first to blame the system—anyone but himself—for allowing this to happen. But he's wrong.

This is also the same dealer who heard a local DJ/news anchor doing a morning radio show, saying something mild, along the lines of more rigorous background checks and maybe "assault weapons" should be more carefully tracked. I didn't hear the actual broadcast. Well this infuriated the gun dealer, so he began prying into the DJ's past and found that he'd been convicted of a felony (stolen guns/selling stolen guns as it happens) 10 or 12 years earlier, in Alaska. The radio guy had come to Wyoming soon after that and over time got his job as a reporter, became the ski school director where I patrol, got married, had kids. It's safe to say that the DJ probably should have owned up to his wife about his past, but it was his past and his life. But no, the gun dealer didn't share this info, he just sat on it. Then one day, he heard the radio guy talk about the election and how everyone should go vote, he had his "I Voted" sticker and so should you etc. Well in Alaska, if convicted of a felony, you cannot legally vote until you are out of jail. Once you're on parole, you can vote. In Wyoming, if convicted of a felony, you cannot vote again, ever. Mr gun dealer pounced. Provided the local sheriff with details of the Alaska crimes, and quoted the DJ's words that he had voted in our county. The sheriff confirmed that the guy had actually registered to vote, asked the radio guy if he'd voted, got a "yes" and was duty-bound to arrest him on felony voter fraud charges. Lost his job(s), wife & family. A local attorney from a famous Wyoming family got him through without any additional jail time, got him a job he's excelling at, but the family and kids have moved on.

So anyway, just ranting. That dealer is a terrorist, IMO. A vile human being capable of nearly anything in defense of his "beliefs."

 

 
sorry about your friend

florida has the "baker act"

ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Jan 8, 2015 - 11:02am

 sirdroseph wrote:


Sounds like that dealer shouldn't own weapons either much less sell them.....psycho alert!{#Eek}

 
His email tagline is "Every time I start my Harley, Jesus kills a hippie." Aren't Harleys and hippies sort of, you know,  ? 
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