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haresfur
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Posted: Aug 10, 2016 - 5:47pm

 bokey wrote:

Give them suctions cups and let them off themselves.

 

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Posted: Aug 10, 2016 - 5:44pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:

Wright is absolutely correct. There shouldn't have been any actual firearms - let alone ammunition - in the room. No excuse. Nope. None.

 
Give them suctions cups and let them off themselves.
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Aug 10, 2016 - 5:34pm

 haresfur wrote: 
Wright is absolutely correct. There shouldn't have been any actual firearms - let alone ammunition - in the room. No excuse. Nope. None.
haresfur
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Posted: Aug 10, 2016 - 4:25pm

 westslope wrote:
Florida cop fatally shoots 73-year-old former librarian during role play

Incredible.

Why did the police officer not check the rounds before commencing the exercise?  

 

POLICE GUNNING DOWN A 73 YEAR-OLD WOMAN DURING A WEAPONS CLASS WAS NO ACCIDENT — JIM WRIGHT EXPLAINS IT ALL


westslope

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Location: BC desert


Posted: Aug 10, 2016 - 2:22pm

Florida cop fatally shoots 73-year-old former librarian during role play

Incredible.

Why did the police officer not check the rounds before commencing the exercise?  
kauri

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Posted: Aug 4, 2016 - 8:04pm

https://www.facebook.com/OccupyDemocrats/videos/1020879604671760/ i rest my case
islander
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Posted: Aug 3, 2016 - 5:03pm

 kurtster wrote:

No, I anticipated this thought.  It is more than likely that most vets use a gun, to make sure.  A vet is always going to be able to get a gun no matter what any law says.  It skews the numbers for the general population.  

And you're suggesting what for our vets ?  How are you going to intervene at any level when more active duty off themselves than those killed in combat ?  This is a systemic problem, not a gun problem.

Suicide is not a gun problem, period.  Its an excuse to restrict guns, not a reason. 

 
More health and support services when they return for starters. Long term, stop sending them away as much to fight foreign people for questionable objectives so you don't have so many returning with issues.

A you're fond of saying, laws won't stop anyone, soldier or not.  The idea is to make them less common and readily accessible so that a rash action won't have such dire consequences. Suicide itself is not a gun problem, but the ready availability of guns makes the suicide problem substantially worse. As demonstrated in Australia, lower suicide rates are an outcome of fewer guns around. Whether you want to call it a direct or an indirect benefit doesn't really matter to me.

Your original statement (the one that confused me), demonstrated that the two issues are intertwined. I think you were trying to say we should de-link them because a reasonable percentage of the suicides were ex-military. But that really doesn't make much sense to me. If suicide is a problem it doesn't really matter who it is that's killing themselves. 
haresfur
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Posted: Aug 3, 2016 - 4:31pm

 kurtster wrote:

Thanks, the post war 70's were pretty nuts for me for a lot of reasons.  

And thanks for the pdf file in your other post.  Pretty interesting stuff in there and detailed.  As I poked around to answer what piled up over the day, I ended up at wiki and found this regarding suicide in Australia and in particular involving guns.

Some researchers have found a significant change in the rate of firearm suicides after the legislative changes. For example, Ozanne-Smith et al. (2004) in the journal Injury Prevention found a reduction in firearm suicides in Victoria, however this study did not consider non-firearm suicide rates. Others have argued that alternative methods of suicide have been substituted. De Leo, Dwyer, Firman & Neulinger, studied suicide methods in men from 1979 to 1998 and found a rise in hanging suicides that started slightly before the fall in gun suicides. As hanging suicides rose at about the same rate as gun suicides fell, it is possible that there was some substitution of suicide methods. It has been noted that drawing strong conclusions about possible impacts of gun laws on suicides is challenging, because a number of suicide prevention programs were implemented from the mid-1990s onwards, and non-firearm suicides also began falling.

It seems that your pdf link supports the trends between hanging and guns on page 13 of the report or page 23 of the file.  

I'm not trying to belittle suicide at any level or say that we should do nothing to prevent it as a society.  I'm just questioning the role that guns have in the subject of suicide as it pertains to the restriction of guns in the USA and our 2nd.

Still reading your pdf.  I went to wiki first and found the part that I quoted and then went to your link to see if it supported or refuted wiki.

Much obliged.

 
As I said before, I read it as the number of alternate methods don't make up for the decrease in gun deaths. But numbers get squishy and we don't have an alternate earth to use as a control group. I'm sure there are substitutions of methods and Australia has been pretty good at starting to address and de-stigmatise mental health issues. I look at it all as defense in depth. Small steps help.
kurtster
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Posted: Aug 3, 2016 - 4:11pm

 haresfur wrote:

Just to be clear, in spite of differences on this issue, I'm sorry for you loss, Kurt.

 
Thanks, the post war 70's were pretty nuts for me for a lot of reasons.  

And thanks for the pdf file in your other post.  Pretty interesting stuff in there and detailed.  As I poked around to answer what piled up over the day, I ended up at wiki and found this regarding suicide in Australia and in particular involving guns.

Some researchers have found a significant change in the rate of firearm suicides after the legislative changes. For example, Ozanne-Smith et al. (2004) in the journal Injury Prevention found a reduction in firearm suicides in Victoria, however this study did not consider non-firearm suicide rates. Others have argued that alternative methods of suicide have been substituted. De Leo, Dwyer, Firman & Neulinger, studied suicide methods in men from 1979 to 1998 and found a rise in hanging suicides that started slightly before the fall in gun suicides. As hanging suicides rose at about the same rate as gun suicides fell, it is possible that there was some substitution of suicide methods. It has been noted that drawing strong conclusions about possible impacts of gun laws on suicides is challenging, because a number of suicide prevention programs were implemented from the mid-1990s onwards, and non-firearm suicides also began falling.

It seems that your pdf link supports the trends between hanging and guns on page 13 of the report or page 23 of the file.  

I'm not trying to belittle suicide at any level or say that we should do nothing to prevent it as a society.  I'm just questioning the role that guns have in the subject of suicide as it pertains to the restriction of guns in the USA and our 2nd.

Still reading your pdf.  I went to wiki first and found the part that I quoted and then went to your link to see if it supported or refuted wiki.

Much obliged.


kurtster
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Posted: Aug 3, 2016 - 3:29pm

 islander wrote:

Just to be clear, are you saying that we shouldn't be so concerned about suicide deaths because a lot of them are former soldiers?  

 
No, I anticipated this thought.  It is more than likely that most vets use a gun, to make sure.  A vet is always going to be able to get a gun no matter what any law says.  It skews the numbers for the general population.  

And you're suggesting what for our vets ?  How are you going to intervene at any level when more active duty off themselves than those killed in combat ?  This is a systemic problem, not a gun problem.

Suicide is not a gun problem, period.  Its an excuse to restrict guns, not a reason. 
Lazy8
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Posted: Aug 3, 2016 - 3:03pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
That's what I meant... the first round should have made him know something's not right. 

It goes beyond that—unless someone else loaded it and handed it to him (a real possibility from what I read, which might be sort of an excuse if he wasn't familiar) it's not like he mixed up a box of blanks and a box of live ammo. You have to individually load each ball into the cylinder and pack it in with a little lever. It's time-consuming and awkward. You would definitely notice you had loaded a ball.

Maybe he left the cylinder loaded the last time he shot it a year or two ago (not as dangerous as it sounds; just leave the percussion cap off and it won't go off) and forgot he'd done it.You can't just unload the thing either—you have to fire it or go thru some even-more-time-consuming extraction process to get that ball out of there. Being as generous as I can here.

But he should still have looked in the cylinders before fitting the caps. And then there's the recoil. A long train of mistakes. Somebody's gonna get his ass kicked in court. And if the organizers didn't have insurance (if they did they probably don't anymore) then dog help them.


westslope

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Location: BC desert


Posted: Aug 3, 2016 - 2:48pm

 haresfur wrote:

Just to be clear, in spite of differences on this issue, I'm sorry for you loss, Kurt.

 
I'll echo the sentiment.  Even if the victim was just a room mate or former room mate.

Reminds me of a grade 5 class mate who hung himself a few years later.  Robert.  He was weird.  Already pear-shaped in grade 5 and kinda nerdy — decades before being nerdy became uber cool.  Some of the kids picked on him though the bullying was minor compared to what it could have been.   

I never tormented Robert but then I did not stand up for him either.  My days of standing up for strangers and people I did not know well would come later.  Call it the curse of a 6' 5" male with a warrior complex.  


ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Aug 3, 2016 - 2:36pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
So you're shootin' cotton wads out o' your .44 handloader, but a real ball got in there "somehow." Once you get up off the ground, you gonna pull the trigger again?

It's not like you wouldn't notice. The difference in recoil between a cotton wad and a .44 ball is the difference between a firm handshake and a kitten batting at you.

 
That's what I meant... the first round should have made him know something's not right.
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Aug 3, 2016 - 2:15pm

 Lazy8 wrote:

I expect they'll be handed to him.

 
{#Lol}
Lazy8
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Posted: Aug 3, 2016 - 2:09pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:
Why is he carrying those?
 
I expect they'll be handed to him.
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Aug 3, 2016 - 2:00pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
Cap & ball. No ammo.

Why is he carrying those?
 


Lazy8
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Posted: Aug 3, 2016 - 1:52pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:
The real question here is wtf would a "wild west exhibition" shooter even have bulleted ammunition in his kit? 

Cap & ball. No ammo.
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Aug 3, 2016 - 1:50pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

So you're shootin' cotton wads out o' your .44 handloader, but a real ball got in there "somehow." Once you get up off the ground, you gonna pull the trigger again?

 
The real question here is wtf would a "cowboy action" shooter even have bulleted ammunition in his kit?


Lazy8
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Posted: Aug 3, 2016 - 1:43pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
So you're shootin' cotton wads out o' your .44 handloader, but a real ball got in there "somehow." Once you get up off the ground, you gonna pull the trigger again?

It's not like you wouldn't notice. The difference in recoil between a cotton wad and a .44 ball is the difference between a firm handshake and a kitten batting at you.
ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Aug 3, 2016 - 1:20pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:

genius

 
So you're shootin' cotton wads out o' your .44 handloader, but a real ball got in there "somehow." Once you get up off the ground, you gonna pull the trigger again?
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