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Post to this Topic
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Nov 21, 2017 - 6:33am



Yeah, this is the world we want to live in. I'm not talking about the grammar.
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 1:56pm

genius
Dragonfly_Launch

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Posted: Nov 12, 2017 - 2:05pm

 ScottN wrote:


 
Yep, we are still wanding Grandmas out there. 
R_P
Ni dieu ni maître
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Posted: Nov 9, 2017 - 1:11pm

Ouch
ScottN
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Posted: Nov 9, 2017 - 11:03am


islander
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Posted: Nov 8, 2017 - 7:03am

 kurtster wrote:

That's funny coming from a guy who owns guns to one who doesn't.  I'm defending your right to own guns even though I do not.  I believe in the rights of ordinary law abiding citizens.  There is no law that will 100% prevent someone who really wants a gun from getting one.  And since you keep on bringing up Sandy Hook, I'll remind you that Sandy Hook was a gun free zone.  A whole lot of good that did.  It was the one school in the district without city police presence and was sued for failure to provide protection for the school.

What if I, someone who doesn't own a gun, was for repeal of the 2nd Amendment and the confiscation of all guns ?  I could just as easily be against your lawful ability to own guns.  Then what would you say to me ?

Would you be willing to cheerfully turn in your guns should it be repealed ?  Would you feel safe walking around in the Alaskan wilds without one ?  Why should I care about you wanting to own a gun ?

 
That's a pretty good job of misrepresenting EVERYTHING that has been said on the topic. 
kurtster

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Posted: Nov 7, 2017 - 8:36pm

 islander wrote:

Yeah, that's what you were seeking.

 
That's funny coming from a guy who owns guns to one who doesn't.  I'm defending your right to own guns even though I do not.  I believe in the rights of ordinary law abiding citizens.  There is no law that will 100% prevent someone who really wants a gun from getting one.  And since you keep on bringing up Sandy Hook, I'll remind you that Sandy Hook was a gun free zone.  A whole lot of good that did.  It was the one school in the district without city police presence and was sued for failure to provide protection for the school.

What if I, someone who doesn't own a gun, was for repeal of the 2nd Amendment and the confiscation of all guns ?  I could just as easily be against your lawful ability to own guns.  Then what would you say to me ?

Would you be willing to cheerfully turn in your guns should it be repealed ?  Would you feel safe walking around in the Alaskan wilds without one ?  Why should I care about you wanting to own a gun ?
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Nov 7, 2017 - 7:02pm

 BlueHeronDruid wrote:


 
ayup.
BlueHeronDruid

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Posted: Nov 7, 2017 - 6:47pm


islander
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Posted: Nov 7, 2017 - 6:06pm

 kurtster wrote:

And with that kind of thinking we will never find a middle ground.

 
Yeah, that's what you were seeking.
miamizsun

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Posted: Nov 7, 2017 - 3:38pm

 R_P wrote:
'We Think the Price Is Worth It'
 
we do





aflanigan
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Posted: Nov 7, 2017 - 3:09pm

 kurtster wrote:
So what diagnosis does the APA use for someone who beats women, cracks the skulls of infants and beats animals, repeatedly and then goes out and kills a couple dozen people ?

There is definitely something mentally defective going on.

 
What diagnosis do they use for someone who promotes the fallacy that a single example is representative of a set with thousands of members?


kurtster

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Posted: Nov 7, 2017 - 2:41pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

  1. No it isn't
  2. So what?
  3. No it isn't
  4. So what?


 
And with that kind of thinking we will never find a middle ground.
kurtster

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Posted: Nov 7, 2017 - 2:39pm

So what diagnosis does the APA use for someone who beats women, cracks the skulls of infants and beats animals, repeatedly and then goes out and kills a couple dozen people ?

There is definitely something mentally defective going on.
ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints
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Posted: Nov 7, 2017 - 2:39pm

 kurtster wrote:
The last paragraph in the NYT article that flanny posted is
  1. just beyond over the top and is 
  2. beyond offensive to those who wish to keep their arms and increases the divide while 
  3. pretending to be seeking to close the divide for the benefit of those in the legitimate middle 
  4. to make them think that those wishing to keep their arms are beyond contempt.
 
  1. No it isn't
  2. So what?
  3. No it isn't
  4. So what?

kurtster

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Posted: Nov 7, 2017 - 2:33pm

The 2nd Amendment is about the issue of Trust more than any single other thing.  The ability to trust the government.  And even with good intentions, government is fallible.  When government fails to do its job properly, people can and do die.  Texas is an example.  Had the USAF done its job properly and notified the FBI about the details of the shooter's incarceration and nature of his discharge, he would never have been able to acquire guns legally.  Texas happened because of government incompetence.  So it is not valid in a gun rights discussion in the way those who wish to disarm the population.  Yet it is valid in the discussion for keeping ordinary citizens armed in that a neighbor to the church was armed, intervened and actually prevented more deaths from happening. 

I always see the arguments about how much an armed citizenry prevents or mitigates violence be destroyed by those who want to disarm  when they call for statistics to back up this position.  We know that it is nearly impossible to compile statistics on things that don't happen.  Yet we get tangible events like Texas where we can cite an actual event that does back up this position and it gets ignored as quickly as possible by those who wish to disarm because it challenges their assertion that these things never happen.

Therein lies the bulk of the problem.  There are three sides of this issue.  The side that wants to disarm, the side that wants to keep and the middle who thinks that there can be a middle position.  There might be a middle position solution if the side that wants to disarm wasn't trustworthy when it says they want to limit, pretending the middle, but in reality they want no guns at all. Those who want to keep their arms don't trust those who cry for more and tougher laws every time we have a newsworthy event such as in Texas, when they ignore the fact that a law was already in place that if properly executed would have prevented the event.  The call for more laws when laws already in place are not followed only makes the lack of trust deeper.  The conflation of semi automatic and automatic weapons by the disarmament side also furthers the distrust.

Those who are legitimately with a middle position cannot understand why the other two sides have a trust issue.  Well really, the side that wishes to disarm is the one not trustworthy.  They only pretend to seek the middle ground and try to co opt or trick those in the legitimate middle to seeing their efforts as only placing limits, not disarming.  Those who defend the 2nd don't trust anyone to make sure that there will be only reasonable common sense solutions.  And rightly so as history has shown us over centuries.

The last paragraph in the NYT article that flanny posted is just beyond over the top and is beyond offensive to those who wish to keep their arms and increases the divide while pretending to be seeking to close the divide for the benefit of those in the legitimate middle to make them think that those wishing to keep their arms are beyond contempt.
.
“In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate,” Dan Hodges, a British journalist, wrote in a post on Twitter two years ago, referring to the 2012 attack that killed 20 young students at an elementary school in Connecticut. “Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”


R_P
Ni dieu ni maître
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Posted: Nov 7, 2017 - 12:52pm

'We Think the Price Is Worth It'
haresfur
I get around
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Posted: Nov 7, 2017 - 12:44pm

 miamizsun wrote:

i think we're talking about a symptom and not the root cause

it's a big subject that not many (want to) think about and it will take some time to implement

our culture from top to bottom is conditioned to use the initiation of violence as an acceptable solution

in short politics/political system is anti-science (if we look at the results it is pretty easy to see that the leaders don't know what they're doing)

one way to know this is that we're have the same problems over and over again (different actors and different stages maybe but the same issues)

there's no science in social science, we suffer the same issues again and again and eventually we get frustrated and resort to violence

it is what happens when we fail to use logic and reason with or applied to human action

in the physical action and biological action sciences we use the scientific method/methodology to pin the proper labels and get basic understanding of what is (causes of effects we like or dislike)

this is clearly the method of methods and cuts across cultures, borders, languages, etc.

notice there's not japanese algebra or mexican algebra, etc.

established scientific definitions work well everywhere on earth

but when it comes to political belief systems, social/human action science is radically different

political definitions, like most other religious definitions are open to interpretation/exploitation

it's as though people think human action is beyond or outside the reach of scientific methodology

do we ever wonder why people protest war and eventually that war may stop or end only to see another war pop up later or in another location?

undoing the religion of identity politics and violence as a political solution isn't going to be easy, but if we want to make progress it will be necessary

politicians and rulers are drunk on power and they've convinced the masses that if they get enough of it they'll turn this place into a utopia (by force of course)

history shows us that this will never happen but we repeatedly fall for the same indoctrination and lather rinse repeat

when we wise up it will probably take a generation or so

if you're interested i can point you to some great info (lectures)

regards
 

 
Yet, the USA  doesn't learn from the observational descriptive science everywhere else in the world that shows how you could make the country safer.

Many countries have a huge violent streak but it doesn't result in the level of death and destruction seen in the US. Look at England and Australia for examples. Piss-up, punch-up, go home.
meower

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Gender: Female
Zodiac: Gemini


Posted: Nov 7, 2017 - 10:53am

“The vast majority of people with mental illness are not violent. A complex combination of risk factors, including a history of domestic violence, violent misdemeanor crimes and substance use disorders, increases the likelihood of people using a firearm against themselves or others.

“Firearm prohibitions for these high-risk groups have been shown to reduce gun violence. The suspect in this case, Devin Patrick Kelley, exhibited several of these red flags.

“Gun violence is a serious public health problem that requires attention to these risk factors, as well as more research to inform the development and implementation of empirically based prevention and threat assessment strategies. Calling this shooting a ‘mental health problem’ distracts our nation’s leaders from developing policies and legislation that would focus on preventing gun violence through a scientific, public health approach.”

- Antonio E. Puente, PhD
President of the American Psychological Assoc


islander
Thalassophile
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Location: Seattle
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: Nov 7, 2017 - 7:30am

 miamizsun wrote:

i think we're talking about a symptom and not the root cause

it's a big subject that not many (want to) think about and it will take some time to implement

our culture from top to bottom is conditioned to use the initiation of violence as an acceptable solution

in short politics/political system is anti-science (if we look at the results it is pretty easy to see that the leaders don't know what they're doing)

one way to know this is that we're have the same problems over and over again (different actors and different stages maybe but the same issues)

there's no science in social science, we suffer the same issues again and again and eventually we get frustrated and resort to violence

it is what happens when we fail to use logic and reason with or applied to human action

in the physical action and biological action sciences we use the scientific method/methodology to pin the proper labels and get basic understanding of what is (causes of effects we like or dislike)

this is clearly the method of methods and cuts across cultures, borders, languages, etc.

notice there's not japanese algebra or mexican algebra, etc.

established scientific definitions work well everywhere on earth

but when it comes to political belief systems, social/human action science is radically different

political definitions, like most other religious definitions are open to interpretation/exploitation

it's as though people think human action is beyond or outside the reach of scientific methodology

do we ever wonder why people protest war and eventually that war may stop or end only to see another war pop up later or in another location?

undoing the religion of identity politics and violence as a political solution isn't going to be easy, but if we want to make progress it will be necessary

politicians and rulers are drunk on power and they've convinced the masses that if they get enough of it they'll turn this place into a utopia (by force of course)

history shows us that this will never happen but we repeatedly fall for the same indoctrination and lather rinse repeat

when we wise up it will probably take a generation or so

if you're interested i can point you to some great info (lectures)

regards
 

 
Sometimes it's hard to separate the symptom and the disease. Other countries certainly do share our problems of identity politics and forceful government action, yet only the US  seems to have this particular problem with mass shootings. And it seems to be trending worse, not better. We aren't on the path of wising up in a generation. 

I'm not calling for a ban on guns, but I do think there is room for reasonable (yes, this is debatable) regulation. I think that a nation of 300 million people with 500 million guns seems a bit ridiculous.  A lot of people see a correlation with the number of guns and the problem of mass shooting. I'm open to other causes as well, but I don't see anyone actually doing anything.  I'm out of outrage. I was done after Sandy Hook. I still own a long gun and want a handgun for an eventual trip to the Alaska wilds. The handgun will never be carried in public because I think that's not needed/useful/helpful. But I'd happily submit to more scrutiny, training, registration, restrictions on ammunition, or any number of other options out there. But the NRA and their bought and paid for legislature won't entertain it.  The other side hasn't funded a counter organization (and who knows how long it would take before it was big/effective and if that would result in anything good either), so here we are. We'll wring our hands and send our thoughts and prayers. Then we will let it happen again, and we will feel bad. But we will never feel bad enough apparently. 


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