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Steely_D
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Posted: Jan 8, 2015 - 3:18pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
So anyway, just ranting. That dealer is a terrorist, IMO. A vile human being capable of nearly anything in defense of his "beliefs."
 
Folks confuse laws for "what's right."

It's not unlawful, therefore it's right!
It's the law, therefore it's right!

Never mind ethics or compassion. It's legal what I did. See you in court. 
haresfur
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Posted: Jan 8, 2015 - 2:21pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
So anyway, just ranting. That dealer is a terrorist, IMO. A vile human being capable of nearly anything in defense of his "beliefs."
 
:speechless 
Coaxial
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Posted: Jan 8, 2015 - 1:44pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

His email tagline is "Every time I start my Harley, Jesus kills a hippie." Aren't Harleys and hippies sort of, you know,  ? 

 
Wow...Sorry about what this asshole did to your friend...Karma has a way of dealing with people like this.
miamizsun

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Posted: Jan 8, 2015 - 1:26pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
On Dec. 11, a local guy went missing. He was on a suicide watch with the local behavioral health center, and his brother, who I grew up with and worked briefly in this office with, had gone to his home and taken all of the guns out. The guy made no secret of his wishes, and the family was scrambling to get him more secure, but that was apparently a few days coming. I don't know how background checks work, but his decline was fairly precipitous and maybe it takes time to show up in the database. I don't know. Anyway, he'd gotten his last two guns at a particular dealer, so his girlfriend went in there to tell them the situation and cried/pleaded with them not to sell him a gun. They in fact got a visit from the man a day later, ordered in a .38 derringer and delivered it. They found the guy last week. His girlfriend went to the shop to apologize for making a scene and the shop owner lost his shit and started screaming at her from across the store that she was a crazy bitch who drove the guy to take his own life.

We say we have to have a system where people who want guns should be able to get them, but those who shouldn't have them can't get them. But here's a case where the shop owner clearly had more than enough information —but not a law— to guide him in his decision to sell, but he ignored that information and took the money. But he'll be first in line to protest a law telling him how to run his business. He'll be the first to blame the system—anyone but himself—for allowing this to happen. But he's wrong.

This is also the same dealer who heard a local DJ/news anchor doing a morning radio show, saying something mild, along the lines of more rigorous background checks and maybe "assault weapons" should be more carefully tracked. I didn't hear the actual broadcast. Well this infuriated the gun dealer, so he began prying into the DJ's past and found that he'd been convicted of a felony (stolen guns/selling stolen guns as it happens) 10 or 12 years earlier, in Alaska. The radio guy had come to Wyoming soon after that and over time got his job as a reporter, became the ski school director where I patrol, got married, had kids. It's safe to say that the DJ probably should have owned up to his wife about his past, but it was his past and his life. But no, the gun dealer didn't share this info, he just sat on it. Then one day, he heard the radio guy talk about the election and how everyone should go vote, he had his "I Voted" sticker and so should you etc. Well in Alaska, if convicted of a felony, you cannot legally vote until you are out of jail. Once you're on parole, you can vote. In Wyoming, if convicted of a felony, you cannot vote again, ever. Mr gun dealer pounced. Provided the local sheriff with details of the Alaska crimes, and quoted the DJ's words that he had voted in our county. The sheriff confirmed that the guy had actually registered to vote, asked the radio guy if he'd voted, got a "yes" and was duty-bound to arrest him on felony voter fraud charges. Lost his job(s), wife & family. A local attorney from a famous Wyoming family got him through without any additional jail time, got him a job he's excelling at, but the family and kids have moved on.

So anyway, just ranting. That dealer is a terrorist, IMO. A vile human being capable of nearly anything in defense of his "beliefs."

 

 
sorry about your friend

florida has the "baker act"

ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Jan 8, 2015 - 11:02am

 sirdroseph wrote:


Sounds like that dealer shouldn't own weapons either much less sell them.....psycho alert!{#Eek}

 
His email tagline is "Every time I start my Harley, Jesus kills a hippie." Aren't Harleys and hippies sort of, you know,  ? 
sirdroseph
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Posted: Jan 8, 2015 - 10:54am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


So anyway, just ranting. That dealer is a terrorist, IMO. A vile human being capable of nearly anything in defense of his "beliefs."

 

 

Sounds like that dealer shouldn't own weapons either much less sell them.....psycho alert!{#Eek}
meower

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Posted: Jan 8, 2015 - 10:50am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
On Dec. 11, a local guy went missing. He was on a suicide watch with the local behavioral health center, and his brother, who I grew up with and worked briefly in this office with, had gone to his home and taken all of the guns out. The guy made no secret of his wishes, and the family was scrambling to get him more secure, but that was apparently a few days coming. I don't know how background checks work, but his decline was fairly precipitous and maybe it takes time to show up in the database. I don't know. Anyway, he'd gotten his last two guns at a particular dealer, so his girlfriend went in there to tell them the situation and cried/pleaded with them not to sell him a gun. They in fact got a visit from the man a day later, ordered in a .38 derringer and delivered it. They found the guy last week. His girlfriend went to the shop to apologize for making a scene and the shop owner lost his shit and started screaming at her from across the store that she was a crazy bitch who drove the guy to take his own life.

We say we have to have a system where people who want guns should be able to get them, but those who shouldn't have them can't get them. But here's a case where the shop owner clearly had more than enough information —but not a law— to guide him in his decision to sell, but he ignored that information and took the money. But he'll be first in line to protest a law telling him how to run his business. He'll be the first to blame the system—anyone but himself—for allowing this to happen. But he's wrong.

This is also the same dealer who heard a local DJ/news anchor doing a morning radio show, saying something mild, along the lines of more rigorous background checks and maybe "assault weapons" should be more carefully tracked. I didn't hear the actual broadcast. Well this infuriated the gun dealer, so he began prying into the DJ's past and found that he'd been convicted of a felony (stolen guns/selling stolen guns as it happens) 10 or 12 years earlier, in Alaska. The radio guy had come to Wyoming soon after that and over time got his job as a reporter, became the ski school director where I patrol, got married, had kids. It's safe to say that the DJ probably should have owned up to his wife about his past, but it was his past and his life. But no, the gun dealer didn't share this info, he just sat on it. Then one day, he heard the radio guy talk about the election and how everyone should go vote, he had his "I Voted" sticker and so should you etc. Well in Alaska, if convicted of a felony, you cannot legally vote until you are out of jail. Once you're on parole, you can vote. In Wyoming, if convicted of a felony, you cannot vote again, ever. Mr gun dealer pounced. Provided the local sheriff with details of the Alaska crimes, and quoted the DJ's words that he had voted in our county. The sheriff confirmed that the guy had actually registered to vote, asked the radio guy if he'd voted, got a "yes" and was duty-bound to arrest him on felony voter fraud charges. Lost his job(s), wife & family. A local attorney from a famous Wyoming family got him through without any additional jail time, got him a job he's excelling at, but the family and kids have moved on.

So anyway, just ranting. That dealer is a terrorist, IMO. A vile human being capable of nearly anything in defense of his "beliefs."

 

 

  not a rant as far as I'm concerned.


ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints.
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Location: Powell
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Posted: Jan 8, 2015 - 10:47am

On Dec. 11, a local guy went missing. He was on a suicide watch with the local behavioral health center, and his brother, who I grew up with and worked briefly in this office with, had gone to his home and taken all of the guns out. The guy made no secret of his wishes, and the family was scrambling to get him more secure, but that was apparently a few days coming. I don't know how background checks work, but his decline was fairly precipitous and maybe it takes time to show up in the database. I don't know. Anyway, he'd gotten his last two guns at a particular dealer, so his girlfriend went in there to tell them the situation and cried/pleaded with them not to sell him a gun. They in fact got a visit from the man a day later, ordered in a .38 derringer and delivered it. They found the guy last week. His girlfriend went to the shop to apologize for making a scene and the shop owner lost his shit and started screaming at her from across the store that she was a crazy bitch who drove the guy to take his own life.

We say we have to have a system where people who want guns should be able to get them, but those who shouldn't have them can't get them. But here's a case where the shop owner clearly had more than enough information —but not a law— to guide him in his decision to sell, but he ignored that information and took the money. But he'll be first in line to protest a law telling him how to run his business. He'll be the first to blame the system—anyone but himself—for allowing this to happen. But he's wrong.

This is also the same dealer who heard a local DJ/news anchor doing a morning radio show, saying something mild, along the lines of more rigorous background checks and maybe "assault weapons" should be more carefully tracked. I didn't hear the actual broadcast. Well this infuriated the gun dealer, so he began prying into the DJ's past and found that he'd been convicted of a felony (stolen guns/selling stolen guns as it happens) 10 or 12 years earlier, in Alaska. The radio guy had come to Wyoming soon after that and over time got his job as a reporter, became the ski school director where I patrol, got married, had kids. It's safe to say that the DJ probably should have owned up to his wife about his past, but it was his past and his life. But no, the gun dealer didn't share this info, he just sat on it. Then one day, he heard the radio guy talk about the election and how everyone should go vote, he had his "I Voted" sticker and so should you etc. Well in Alaska, if convicted of a felony, you cannot legally vote until you are out of jail. Once you're on parole, you can vote. In Wyoming, if convicted of a felony, you cannot vote again, ever. Mr gun dealer pounced. Provided the local sheriff with details of the Alaska crimes, and quoted the DJ's words that he had voted in our county. The sheriff confirmed that the guy had actually registered to vote, asked the radio guy if he'd voted, got a "yes" and was duty-bound to arrest him on felony voter fraud charges. Lost his job(s), wife & family. A local attorney from a famous Wyoming family got him through without any additional jail time, got him a job he's excelling at, but the family and kids have moved on.

So anyway, just ranting. That dealer is a terrorist, IMO. A vile human being capable of nearly anything in defense of his "beliefs."

 
Lazy8
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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 5, 2015 - 8:20am

aflanigan wrote:
My mistake. I was under the impression that the second amendment was part of the constitution.

Just nothing to do with the post you responded to.
aflanigan
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Posted: Jan 5, 2015 - 8:04am

 Lazy8 wrote:
aflanigan wrote:
Actually, one of the factors courts tend to weigh on constitutional issues such as gay marriage is whether someone is suffering actual harm.

The courts aren't involved, I wasn't bringing up any constitutional issues, and being sent to prison ought to count as actual harm. But thanks for sharing.

 
My mistake. I was under the impression that the second amendment was part of the constitution.

 
Lazy8
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Posted: Jan 5, 2015 - 7:46am

aflanigan wrote:
Actually, one of the factors courts tend to weigh on constitutional issues such as gay marriage is whether someone is suffering actual harm.

The courts aren't involved, I wasn't bringing up any constitutional issues, and being sent to prison ought to count as actual harm. But thanks for sharing.
aflanigan
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Posted: Jan 5, 2015 - 7:43am

 Lazy8 wrote:

The point isn't who's more oppressed
 

Actually, one of the factors courts tend to weigh on constitutional issues such as gay marriage is whether someone is suffering actual harm.
kurtster
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Posted: Jan 5, 2015 - 5:17am

it was written:

This law may or may not be constitutional - there is a process we have to follow to establish that. But it was enacted by a legal procedure that we as a society have agreed to as a method for governing all of our peoples regardless of position on the liberal/conservative spectrum.  It's not a good precedent to have groups - especially armed groups, decide they can just ignore certain laws because they don't like them. It's worse when the enforcement arm of our government openly supports that action because they also have issues with the law.

 
 
Yes, the initiative or referendum process.  Perhaps the biggest example of how the people have so decisively spoken would be about gay marriage.  I'm not debating the merits of it, just using it as an example.  In state after state, bans or restrictions were passed by initiatives and in some cases, state legislation.  They have all been stuck down or will be, regardless of the will of the majority.
    it was also written:

I'm just not so into the precedent of "I don't like this law that was just passed, so I'm going to openly ignore it". There are dozens of laws that trouble or inconvenience me. Some even have constitutional arguments against them. Do I get to just start ignoring them? Or do I need to get at least 20 friends to help me with a rally? 

We have sheriffs, many sheriffs, openly saying just that on gun laws and immigration laws to name just two cases, not just ordinary citizens.  The 20 teens will be remembered as the decade of bad laws, imho.  So many bad laws are being passed that they cannot be overturned just because of the shear number of them.  Who has the money and the standing to do that ?  Basically no one.  And with a lack of standing, regardless of money, a bad law will sit, maybe for decades and be forgotten, until someone walks it out to oppress an individual or groups.  This is how it is done and being done to us all.  Same as it ever was, only more so than ever before.

The deep pockets or the deepest pockets win, depending on the side taken in a challenge, no matter what.  It is the death of a thousand cuts.

Furthermore, the rule of law has been rendered to simple campaign lip service / rhetoric, no different from the biggest one of all time ... I'm tough on crime, vote for me !   Proof of that lies at our borders.  The rule of law as I understand it, depends on a sovereign state or nation.  Sovereignty begins at the borders.  To not defend our borders is to defiantly act against our sovereignty and the rule of law.  Did I just define a version of tyranny ?

There is a civic duty to defy bad laws.  But who can take that risk anymore ?  I applaud the stand of the gathering of people in Washington cited in the article that started this latest dialogue.  How about we arrest the protesters in NYC and other places marching around chanting ... What do we want ?  Dead cops !  When do we want it ?  Now !  How is that not inciting riot and any different from shouting fire in a theatre ?

Society is coming unglued and rather quickly.  And it even seems to be by design considering who the leaders are and the laws they are ignoring in fomenting this civil unrest.

Later ... 


Lazy8
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Posted: Jan 4, 2015 - 7:58pm

islander wrote:
Sorry, I am a bit sensitive on this too - largely because I know a lot of rational people who lose there shit when this topic comes up and I very frequently get accused of being BOTH a gun grabbing liberal pussy, and a Gun loving nutcase who doesn't care when babies are shot. 

I'm actually more on your side than the others. But your amazing inertia of "No" isn't going to hold forever. When it breaks I think you are going to see some of the gun grabbing that you fear so much. A little compromise from both sides could solve this for 99+% of people across the spectrum, but neither side will have it.  Hey, whatever. I live in my lily white well protected enclave.  I'll probably benefit from the loopholes that will inevitably be put in place as well. There's really no talking to most on this topic. 

And gun owners really aren't as oppressed as black people in the south in the 40's.

The point isn't who's more oppressed, it's that civil disobedience is just as valid a tool of protest today as it was when Henry David Thoreau coined the term in 1849.

As for compromise, here's a suggestion: how about trying something other than yet another law? If you want someone's cooperation threatening to put him in prison isn't necessarily the best way to get it.


islander
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Posted: Jan 4, 2015 - 6:42pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
islander wrote:
What?  Seriously, I like and respect you a lot. But I can't talk to you about this subject. Whenever we do you get vindictive and insulting. I guess I can see where it comes from, but you've said things that are seriously hurtful and unnecessary and it's not worth it to me to even try when that's the outcome. I look forward to continuing our friendly conversations and friendship on any other topic.

I do get heartily sick of the sanctimony and dishonesty that always accompanies this debate, and that gets expressed as snark. If my last was enough to set you off you might consider a slightly thicker skin. I expect to see a lot worse directed my way. Also: you aren't the only one reading this. Feel free to ignore me, but I'm going to respond to the point you raised.

The point of my last post (which it's not clear got thru) is that civil disobedience is a legitimate way to make a political point. When a majority (for whatever reason) imposes its will on a minority via law it's fair game for the minority to respond by saying "Over my dead body." It forces the electorate to come to terms with what they have legislated—what it actually means, rather than the puppies-and-rainbows bill of goods they were sold.

 
Sorry, I am a bit sensitive on this too - largely because I know a lot of rational people who lose there shit when this topic comes up and I very frequently get accused of being BOTH a gun grabbing liberal pussy, and a Gun loving nutcase who doesn't care when babies are shot. 

I'm actually more on your side than the others. But your amazing inertia of "No" isn't going to hold forever. When it breaks I think you are going to see some of the gun grabbing that you fear so much. A little compromise from both sides could solve this for 99+% of people across the spectrum, but neither side will have it.  Hey, whatever. I live in my lily white well protected enclave.  I'll probably benefit from the loopholes that will inevitably be put in place as well. There's really no talking to most on this topic. 

And gun owners really aren't as oppressed as black people in the south in the 40's. 
Lazy8
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Posted: Jan 4, 2015 - 6:07pm

islander wrote:
What?  Seriously, I like and respect you a lot. But I can't talk to you about this subject. Whenever we do you get vindictive and insulting. I guess I can see where it comes from, but you've said things that are seriously hurtful and unnecessary and it's not worth it to me to even try when that's the outcome. I look forward to continuing our friendly conversations and friendship on any other topic.

I do get heartily sick of the sanctimony and dishonesty that always accompanies this debate, and that gets expressed as snark. If my last was enough to set you off you might consider a slightly thicker skin. I expect to see a lot worse directed my way. Also: you aren't the only one reading this. Feel free to ignore me, but I'm going to respond to the point you raised.

The point of my last post (which it's not clear got thru) is that civil disobedience is a legitimate way to make a political point. When a majority (for whatever reason) imposes its will on a minority via law it's fair game for the minority to respond by saying "Over my dead body." It forces the electorate to come to terms with what they have legislated—what it actually means, rather than the puppies-and-rainbows bill of goods they were sold.
islander
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Posted: Jan 4, 2015 - 11:34am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 islander wrote:
I'm just not so into the precedent of "I don't like this law that was just passed, so I'm going to openly ignore it". There are dozens of laws that trouble or inconvenience me. Some even have constitutional arguments against them. Do I get to just start ignoring them? Or do I need to get at least 20 friends to help me with a rally?

bite me

Nope, can't see any good coming from that at all, ever. Nope.

And before you get all puffed up and righteous and "how dare you"—you don't get to pick my heroes.

 
What?  Seriously, I like and respect you a lot. But I can't talk to you about this subject. Whenever we do you get vindictive and insulting. I guess I can see where it comes from, but you've said things that are seriously hurtful and unnecessary and it's not worth it to me to even try when that's the outcome. I look forward to continuing our friendly conversations and friendship on any other topic. 


Lazy8
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Posted: Jan 4, 2015 - 11:20am

 islander wrote:
I'm just not so into the precedent of "I don't like this law that was just passed, so I'm going to openly ignore it". There are dozens of laws that trouble or inconvenience me. Some even have constitutional arguments against them. Do I get to just start ignoring them? Or do I need to get at least 20 friends to help me with a rally?

bite me

Nope, can't see any good coming from that at all, ever. Nope.

And before you get all puffed up and righteous and "how dare you"—you don't get to pick my heroes.
sirdroseph
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Posted: Jan 2, 2015 - 2:47am

 islander wrote:

I'm just not so into the precedent of "I don't like this law that was just passed, so I'm going to openly ignore it". There are dozens of laws that trouble or inconvenience me. Some even have constitutional arguments against them. Do I get to just start ignoring them? Or do I need to get at least 20 friends to help me with a rally? 

 
Yea I get that.
Red_Dragon
y ddraig goch ddyry gychwyn
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Location: Redneck Nation


Posted: Jan 1, 2015 - 3:53pm

 bokey wrote:

If you give out free ammo and beer you'll have a better turnout.

 
That's the ticket!
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