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Lazy8
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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 24, 2016 - 10:36am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
that was just the first link among many.
 
Note that I'm not necessarily advocating for anything except change. Change in status quo, and now change in our approach to effecting change.

Well, that's different!
ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints
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Location: Powell
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Pisces
Chinese Yr: Tiger


Posted: Jun 24, 2016 - 10:17am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
This says a lot more about the Violence Policy Center than it does about that bogeyman the NRA.

It seems like the NRA is advocating for roughly the kind of system you are, albeit at the federal level rather than local, and petition-based rather than automatic. In fact it's stricter than what you are advocating for.

 
that was just the first link among many.
 
Note that I'm not necessarily advocating for anything except change. Change in status quo, and now change in our approach to effecting change.
Lazy8
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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 24, 2016 - 9:55am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
This says a lot more about the Violence Policy Center than it does about that bogeyman the NRA.

It seems like the NRA is advocating for roughly the kind of system you are, albeit at the federal level rather than local, and petition-based rather than automatic. In fact it's stricter than what you are advocating for.
westslope

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Location: BC desert


Posted: Jun 24, 2016 - 7:40am

 Lazy8 wrote:
......

I once took the option of paying an off-duty cop for "traffic school", an alternative punishment scheme in California traffic law. He actually taught us a few things (which apparently was strictly optional under this system, whose main intent seemed to be providing off-duty cops an avenue for moonlighting) and one of them was this:

He held up a copy of the California Vehicle Code, two VERY thick volumes, about eight inches of paper all together. "If I need an excuse to get to know you, trust me, it's in there."

No one has memorized the California Vehicle Code. I doubt anyone could, even as a stunt—and it is minuscule compared to the federal criminal code. No one even knows how many punishable offenses are listed in it; estimates are upwards of 30,000. And more arrive every day.

......

 
The same probably applies to most western countries.  

Yet regular citizens negotiate public transit and private automobiles daily without encountering law enforcement officials while others constantly run into police officers as they blithely violate one traffic law after another.

Maybe education of common law-breaking citizens is required?  Call it: Ten steps to avoid being pulled over by law enforcement.    Perhaps get some experienced high-value criminals to teach the course?  These individuals avoid the police by making sure that everything is in order so they do not raise any suspicion.  

Stupidity, laziness and arrogance are not crimes in of themselves.  But they are often at the root of depraved indifference to fellow citizens.

Otherwise, I agree Lazy8 that people should not go to jail for anti-Christian lifestyle sins.   It would be nice to believe that  the movement to legalize marijuana will  usher in more changes in this direction but I would not count on it.


Lazy8
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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 24, 2016 - 6:56am

 Red_Dragon wrote:
No, I don't. That's exactly what it assumes.

Then I need you to define some terms and point it out.

What do you mean by "behave themselves"?

What part of punishing people only for violating the rights of others assumes that no one will violate the rights of others?
Red_Dragon
y ddraig goch ddyry gychwyn
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Location: Rethuglican Jesusland


Posted: Jun 24, 2016 - 4:24am

 Lazy8 wrote:
Red_Dragon wrote:
You also need government permission to transport a firearm on that same government property. Fair enough?

No, not. And congress actually addressed this with respect to states and municipalities harassing people transporting firearms. Again, the default isn't to make people doing no harm to beg permission, the default is to make government justify a restriction.

Why have laws against anything? Of course criminals ignore them - that's why they're called criminals.

To protect our rights. We write laws to spell out what behavior is forbidden and what the punishment is for engaging in it. Otherwise we either have to protect our rights ourselves (which only works if you can afford it) or subject ourselves to the arbitrary rule of despots, who decide on the spot what is forbidden and for whom, and what penalty they will extract for it.

Libertarian philosophy assumes everyone will behave themselves. I think we all know that isn't likely to happen in our lifetimes. Some people do bad things; as long as that's the case we need laws to first give them pause and then to punish them if they choose to do the bad thing anyway. The best we can hope for in the meantime is to try to agree on how best to govern a society composed of imperfect people.

*assumes villain status in solidarity with SFW*

I think even you recognize this is false so I'm not going to bother with rebutting it.

And SFW pulls it off better.

 
No, I don't. That's exactly what it assumes.
sirdroseph
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Posted: Jun 24, 2016 - 2:38am

Funny quote from Thomas Massie's wife watching the theatrics in the House yesterday: "So let me get this straight...we have rule-makers breaking rules so they can pass more rules that they expect criminals to obey?"  Sums it up nicely.{#Lol}
sirdroseph
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Posted: Jun 24, 2016 - 2:32am

 Lazy8 wrote:



Before I start I want to dispel the notion that what I'm talking about is a regime of rules for people to comply with. I'm talking about changing expectations, changing attitudes, and removing social stigmas.

Let's start with this: criminal justice reform. Repeal any law that creates a crime without a victim so we can lose our position as the most-incarcerated country in the world, and spend our effort protecting people from actual harm instead of looking for excuses to lock them up. That would free up law enforcement resources to pursue genuinely dangerous people and restore respect for the law as an institution.

Let's remove obstacles to people reporting crimes, like threats of deportation of illegal immigrants for any interaction with law enforcement.

Let's teach people to take responsibility for their own safety.  Teach self-defense in gym class, especially for girls. Teach escape, evasion, and defense from an attacker rather than meek compliance.

Let's encourage (rather than criminalize) the use of non-lethal self-defense: pepper spray, tasers, mace. Offer people alternatives to deadly force and stop punishing them for using them.

Let's make effective mental and emotional health services more available and work to remove disincentives to using them—often people in positions where mental health is critical are afraid to access help because it disqualifies them from working or participating in society.


 
Here is a ticket Lazy and miamizsun 2016!  Might even write that shit in, but I think for now Gary Johnson will do.
ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints
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Location: Powell
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Zodiac: Pisces
Chinese Yr: Tiger


Posted: Jun 23, 2016 - 11:30pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
 
We already have a system like this in place. Felons, for instance,
 
whoops! Guns for Felons—How the NRA Works to Rearm Criminals


Lazy8
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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 23, 2016 - 11:25pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
No, I don't think so. You might not have noticed that I took a different tack and agreed with you: You have a right to take a gun anywhere you please. Until you do something that warrants revocation, that is. Get the training, the recertification, so that we know you know (or did at one time) the rules of the road, and off you go, tra la! Guns everywhere, no one says boo. Crash your car into a tree, we're going to look at taking away your license. We'll probably give you a pass the first time. Shoot up the neighbor's scarecrow when your loaded gun falls off the tailgate... same thing. Keep a clean driving / shooting record, you can drive / shoot all you want. Again, I'm sure you can think of a couple of scenarios that even you would think, "that guy needs to not have a gun right now."

We already have a system like this in place. Felons, for instance, (or even misdemeanor offenders in some cases) face a lifetime ban on possessing (that includes even holding in their hands) firearms, with the only way out a "restoration of civil rights" or pardon by the state where the crime occurred. You're talking about a temporary regime, which would be awkward but not out of the question.

It would, however, be open to abuse by states/municipalities looking for arbitrary restrictions.

Lazy8
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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 23, 2016 - 11:05pm

islander wrote:
Laws do control behavior. They give us standards which we agree to operate under, often for public safety. There are laws about how fast we can drive and where. There are laws about how we dispose of our toxic waste. There are laws about how we put things together. There divisions of people in public service (probably too many, but..) who verify compliance with those laws. And for the most part they do make us safer. Whether or not it is worth the burden is a different argument, but they certainly do control behavior.

This is a mighty rosy interpretation of the state of the law.

I once took the option of paying an off-duty cop for "traffic school", an alternative punishment scheme in California traffic law. He actually taught us a few things (which apparently was strictly optional under this system, whose main intent seemed to be providing off-duty cops an avenue for moonlighting) and one of them was this:

He held up a copy of the California Vehicle Code, two VERY thick volumes, about eight inches of paper all together. "If I need an excuse to get to know you, trust me, it's in there."

No one has memorized the California Vehicle Code. I doubt anyone could, even as a stunt—and it is minuscule compared to the federal criminal code. No one even knows how many punishable offenses are listed in it; estimates are upwards of 30,000. And more arrive every day.

Add state law on top of that and you have a vast, malevolent blob of mysterious, contradictory, confusing statutes. You can't possibly comply with all of them because you can't possibly know what they all are. One clever fellow estimates the average American commits three felonies a day. If you agreed to that you signed a blank contract. Mine must be stuck in the mail.

Laws are not fences—boundaries on behavior. They're more like mine fields, vaguely defined, often unmarked and disproportional in their punishment to the offense. They don't stop you from wandering off the path of righteousness, they punish you (unreliably, often randomly, often capriciously) for wandering...or for moving at all, depending on the whims of those in power. Piss off the wrong people and they'll let you know what your transgression was.

Behaving morally is no defense; many laws are arbitrary to the point of absurdity. Just finding out what you are expected to comply with would be the work of a lifetime, and in the course of finding out you would probably break enough of them to keep you in prison all of your days.

So what non-law actions would you support?  And how would you get people to go along with these non-laws?

Before I start I want to dispel the notion that what I'm talking about is a regime of rules for people to comply with. I'm talking about changing expectations, changing attitudes, and removing social stigmas.

Let's start with this: criminal justice reform. Repeal any law that creates a crime without a victim so we can lose our position as the most-incarcerated country in the world, and spend our effort protecting people from actual harm instead of looking for excuses to lock them up. That would free up law enforcement resources to pursue genuinely dangerous people and restore respect for the law as an institution.

Let's remove obstacles to people reporting crimes, like threats of deportation of illegal immigrants for any interaction with law enforcement.

Let's teach people to take responsibility for their own safety.  Teach self-defense in gym class, especially for girls. Teach escape, evasion, and defense from an attacker rather than meek compliance.

Let's encourage (rather than criminalize) the use of non-lethal self-defense: pepper spray, tasers, mace. Offer people alternatives to deadly force and stop punishing them for using them.

Let's make effective mental and emotional health services more available and work to remove disincentives to using them—often people in positions where mental health is critical are afraid to access help because it disqualifies them from working or participating in society.

It's been a long day and I'm tired, but that's a start. No new laws, in fact quite the opposite—but an attempt to deal with the problem of violence at the root. It wouldn't have a ribbon you can cut and it would be hard to take credit for it, but it might actually help.

Beaker

Beaker Avatar



Posted: Jun 23, 2016 - 10:45pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

It doesn't seem all that difficult to implement a good system. I'm with Lazy on at least one aspect of adding laws just to see what happens: If it turns out to not be working, if we say tomorrow the no-fly list is ineffective so we're going to discontinue it, well that just means everyone who's on it will immediately try to fly just because*. And there are people on that list who should be on a damn list.

*When I was in college, our radio station had a rule against dogs in the studio.
The campus also had a rule against dogs in the building.
I got rid of the rule saying no dogs in the studio because it was superfluous and I wanted the station manual to be about radio.
Every fucking DJ with a dog immediately brought their dog to the studio. 

 

ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints
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Location: Powell
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Pisces
Chinese Yr: Tiger


Posted: Jun 23, 2016 - 10:36pm

 islander wrote:

I still want no part of the no fly no buy thing unless they really revamp no fly. 

 
It doesn't seem all that difficult to implement a good system. I'm with Lazy on at least one aspect of adding laws just to see what happens: If it turns out to not be working, if we say tomorrow the no-fly list is ineffective so we're going to discontinue it, well that just means everyone who's on it will immediately try to fly just because*. And there are people on that list who should be on a damn list.

*When I was in college, our radio station had a rule against dogs in the studio.
The campus also had a rule against dogs in the building.
I got rid of the rule saying no dogs in the studio because it was superfluous and I wanted the station manual to be about radio.
Every fucking DJ with a dog immediately brought their dog to the studio. 
R_P
Ni dieu ni maître
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Posted: Jun 23, 2016 - 10:15pm

 kurtster wrote:
Your kind is doomed.  Have a nice day.  I know I will.  {#Mrgreen}
 
Trump U Doomsday Predictions & Conspiracies 101.
islander
Dog is my copilot
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Location: Seattle
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Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: Jun 23, 2016 - 10:12pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

No, I don't think so. You might not have noticed that I took a different tack and agreed with you: You have a right to take a gun anywhere you please. Until you do something that warrants revocation, that is. Get the training, the recertification, so that we know you know (or did at one time) the rules of the road, and off you go, tra la! Guns everywhere, no one says boo. Crash your car into a tree, we're going to look at taking away your license. We'll probably give you a pass the first time. Shoot up the neighbor's scarecrow when your loaded gun falls off the tailgate... same thing. Keep a clean driving / shooting record, you can drive / shoot all you want. Again, I'm sure you can think of a couple of scenarios that even you would think, "that guy needs to not have a gun right now."
 
 

 
I like this. I still also want some kind of registration and a way to cross check that with restraining orders, nasty custody battles, prescriptions for anti-psychotics and that kind of thing. Not necessarily to have access removed (although I would in certain situations like the anti-psychotic prescriptions), but to be aware of the potential problems.

I still want no part of the no fly no buy thing unless they really revamp no fly. 
ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints
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Location: Powell
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Pisces
Chinese Yr: Tiger


Posted: Jun 23, 2016 - 10:08pm

 Beaker wrote:

:thumbsup:

I'd think a reasonable response might be to require all gun owners to take mandatory safety courses, and re-certify every so many years.  

Except that both sides are so entrenched on what they want (or will not do), that I doubt even that idea would fly.

 
I'm trying to find a starting point. Gun control is dead. Not going to happen. It's time to look at the "well-regulated militia" part. I think that insists that regulations are part of the package. I'm sure I'm wrong.
kurtster
waiting ... getting closer
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Posted: Jun 23, 2016 - 10:04pm

 R_P wrote:

Trump U Hyperbole and Mendacity 101.

 
Your kind is doomed.  Have a nice day.  I know I will.  {#Mrgreen}
Beaker

Beaker Avatar



Posted: Jun 23, 2016 - 10:01pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

No, I don't think so. You might not have noticed that I took a different tack and agreed with you: You have a right to take a gun anywhere you please. Until you do something that warrants revocation, that is. Get the training, the recertification, so that we know you know (or did at one time) the rules of the road, and off you go, tra la! Guns everywhere, no one says boo. Crash your car into a tree, we're going to look at taking away your license. We'll probably give you a pass the first time. Shoot up the neighbor's scarecrow when your loaded gun falls off the tailgate... same thing. Keep a clean driving / shooting record, you can drive / shoot all you want. Again, I'm sure you can think of a couple of scenarios that even you would think, "that guy needs to not have a gun right now." 

 
:thumbsup:

I'd think a reasonable response might be to require all gun owners to take mandatory safety courses, and re-certify every so many years.  

Except that both sides are so entrenched on what they want (or will not do), that I doubt even that idea would fly.
ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints
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Location: Powell
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Pisces
Chinese Yr: Tiger


Posted: Jun 23, 2016 - 9:56pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
 Again, you're inverting the default. 
 
No, I don't think so. You might not have noticed that I took a different tack and agreed with you: You have a right to take a gun anywhere you please. Until you do something that warrants revocation, that is. Get the training, the recertification, so that we know you know (or did at one time) the rules of the road, and off you go, tra la! Guns everywhere, no one says boo. Crash your car into a tree, we're going to look at taking away your license. We'll probably give you a pass the first time. Shoot up the neighbor's scarecrow when your loaded gun falls off the tailgate... same thing. Keep a clean driving / shooting record, you can drive / shoot all you want. Again, I'm sure you can think of a couple of scenarios that even you would think, "that guy needs to not have a gun right now."
 
 
Lazy8
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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 23, 2016 - 9:38pm

Red_Dragon wrote:
You also need government permission to transport a firearm on that same government property. Fair enough?

No, not. And congress actually addressed this with respect to states and municipalities harassing people transporting firearms. Again, the default isn't to make people doing no harm to beg permission, the default is to make government justify a restriction.

Why have laws against anything? Of course criminals ignore them - that's why they're called criminals.

To protect our rights. We write laws to spell out what behavior is forbidden and what the punishment is for engaging in it. Otherwise we either have to protect our rights ourselves (which only works if you can afford it) or subject ourselves to the arbitrary rule of despots, who decide on the spot what is forbidden and for whom, and what penalty they will extract for it.

Libertarian philosophy assumes everyone will behave themselves. I think we all know that isn't likely to happen in our lifetimes. Some people do bad things; as long as that's the case we need laws to first give them pause and then to punish them if they choose to do the bad thing anyway. The best we can hope for in the meantime is to try to agree on how best to govern a society composed of imperfect people.

*assumes villain status in solidarity with SFW*

I think even you recognize this is false so I'm not going to bother with rebutting it.

And SFW pulls it off better.
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