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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Unquiet Minds - Mental Health Forum Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 116, 117, 118  Next
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Manbird
Offal Makes Me Strong! Strong! Strong! Weak! Strong! Strong! Strong! Strong! Strong! Strong!
Manbird Avatar

Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Virgo


Posted: Aug 13, 2014 - 11:55am

 ScottN wrote:

This rather long essay (imo), misses one very essential point:  Suicide is, for many, perhaps the vast majority who commit, a relief of unbearable pain. It is not, for most, an intellectual exercise as described above.

I have been twice clinically very depressed, but fortunately not suicidal, though "I could see it from there".  What struck me both times was the unrelenting intense physical pain that accompanies the overall anguish.  In such a situation, one does not make a reasoned and rational decision. It is to end the pain, quite simply.  Medical intervention in most cases is the only avenue to survival...and, sadly, it doesn't always work.

 
Good point, also. The sicker I get when I experience a period of intense depression and anxiety, the physical pain I live with is amplified many times over and I even experience pain in new places. chest pains, migraines, arthritis, I get to the point where I'm unconscious or I'm barely conscious but I can't move any of my muscles. Completely paralyzed by the depression - all kind of things that I don't normally feel. But the psychic pain is by far the worst. I used pray - if there is a god, I would gladly have my legs amputated and have a "normal" neurotypical brain. I still feel that way. I have no desire to live but I'm forced to for obvious reasons. 
meower

meower Avatar

Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe
Gender: Female
Zodiac: Gemini


Posted: Aug 13, 2014 - 5:09am

 ScottN wrote:

This rather long essay (imo), misses one very essential point:  Suicide is, for many, perhaps the vast majority who commit, a relief of unbearable pain. It is not, for most, an intellectual exercise as described above.

I have been twice clinically very depressed, but fortunately not suicidal, though "I could see it from there".  What struck me both times was the unrelenting intense physical pain that accompanies the overall anguish.  In such a situation, one does not make a reasoned and rational decision. It is to end the pain, quite simply.  Medical intervention in most cases is the only avenue to survival...and, sadly, it doesn't always work.

 

I absolutely agree with you Scott, and you're right, there is not necessarily rational "perhaps I'll stay" for others thinking that goes one when we're that close to the dark. Thanks for those thoughts.
ScottN
Strike three? Ump, that wasn't even close
ScottN Avatar

Location: An inch above the K/T boundary. But smth near fracking still has appeal.
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Aries
Chinese Yr: Buffalo


Posted: Aug 12, 2014 - 5:49pm

 meower wrote:

As we have seen, suicide has captured the attention of most of the finest thinkers in Western civilization. The story of suicide, as fact and as idea, runs through Socrates and Aristotle, Cleopatra and Cicero, Judas and Jesus, Augustine and Aquinas, Dante and Maimonides, Chaucer and Shakespeare, Voltaire and Wittgenstein. The history of Western philosophy and religion is, among many other things, one long dialogue on the propriety of taking your own life.

......

None of us can truly know what we mean to other people, and none of us can know what our future self will experience. History and philosophy ask us to remember these mysteries, to look around at friends, family, humanity, at the surprises life brings—the endless possibilities that living offers—and to persevere. There is love and insight to live for, bright moments to cherish, and even the possibility of happiness, and the chance of helping someone else through his or her own troubles. Know that people, through history and today, understand how much courage it takes to stay. Bear witness to the night side of being human and the bravery it entails, and wait for the sun. If we meditate on the record of human wisdom we may find there reason enough to persist and find our way back to happiness. The first step is to consider the arguments and evidence and choose to stay. After that, anything may happen.

First, choose to stay.
~~ Jennifer Michael Hecht  

 
This rather long essay (imo), misses one very essential point:  Suicide is, for many, perhaps the vast majority who commit, a relief of unbearable pain. It is not, for most, an intellectual exercise as described above.

I have been twice clinically very depressed, but fortunately not suicidal, though "I could see it from there".  What struck me both times was the unrelenting intense physical pain that accompanies the overall anguish.  In such a situation, one does not make a reasoned and rational decision. It is to end the pain, quite simply.  Medical intervention in most cases is the only avenue to survival...and, sadly, it doesn't always work.
n4ku
Evil like Sunday Morning
n4ku Avatar



Posted: Aug 12, 2014 - 5:29pm

 RichardPrins wrote:
Split Personalities - Lapham’s Quarterly
(...) Rumors began to circulate about Grimaldi’s private life almost as soon as he became a celebrity, rumors that not only dogged him for the rest of his career but would also shape the way comedians have been conceived of ever since. Newspapers claimed that, when not onstage, Grimaldi was somber and prone to depression. As soon as Mother Goose closed, one periodical wrote that he was “resolved to betake himself to sackcloth and ashes!,” reports he himself chose to confirm with a punning quip: “I am grim all day, but I make you laugh at night.” Without doubt, the apex of these rumors was an anecdote that appeared some time in the 1820s and is still used, frequently misattributed, even to this day. The story involves Grimaldi’s reported visit to the famous surgeon John Abertheny, to whom the clown had gone in search of a cure for his melancholy. Abertheny, unable to identify his patient without his slap and motley, briskly prescribed the diversions of “relaxation and amusement”:
“But where shall I find what you require?” said the patient.

“In genial companionship,” was the reply; “perhaps sometimes at the theater—go and see Grimaldi.”

“Alas!” replied the patient. “That is of no avail to me; I am Grimaldi.”

Grimaldi’s moment coincided with developing attempts in psychology to understand the hidden reaches of the brain. (...)


 
Cool.
RichardPrins
Anti-Procrustean
RichardPrins Avatar



Posted: Aug 12, 2014 - 5:27pm

Split Personalities - Lapham’s Quarterly
(...) Rumors began to circulate about Grimaldi’s private life almost as soon as he became a celebrity, rumors that not only dogged him for the rest of his career but would also shape the way comedians have been conceived of ever since. Newspapers claimed that, when not onstage, Grimaldi was somber and prone to depression. As soon as Mother Goose closed, one periodical wrote that he was “resolved to betake himself to sackcloth and ashes!,” reports he himself chose to confirm with a punning quip: “I am grim all day, but I make you laugh at night.” Without doubt, the apex of these rumors was an anecdote that appeared some time in the 1820s and is still used, frequently misattributed, even to this day. The story involves Grimaldi’s reported visit to the famous surgeon John Abertheny, to whom the clown had gone in search of a cure for his melancholy. Abertheny, unable to identify his patient without his slap and motley, briskly prescribed the diversions of “relaxation and amusement”:
“But where shall I find what you require?” said the patient.

“In genial companionship,” was the reply; “perhaps sometimes at the theater—go and see Grimaldi.”

“Alas!” replied the patient. “That is of no avail to me; I am Grimaldi.”

Grimaldi’s moment coincided with developing attempts in psychology to understand the hidden reaches of the brain. (...)

n4ku
Evil like Sunday Morning
n4ku Avatar



Posted: Aug 12, 2014 - 5:15pm

Groucho Marx on comics and depression.

"I'm sure most of you have heard the story of the man who, desperately ill, goes to an analyst and tells the doctor that he has lost his desire to live and that he is seriously considering suicide. The doctor listens to this tale of melancholia and then tells the patient that what he needs is a good belly laugh. He advises the unhappy man to go to the circus that night and spend the evening laughing at Grock, the world's funniest clown. The doctor sums it up, 'After you have seen Grock, I am sure you will be much happier.' The patient rises to his feet, looks sadly at the doctor, turns and ambles to the door. As he starts to leave, the doctor says, 'By the way what is your name?' The man turns and regards the analyst with sorrowful eyes. 'I am Grock.'"
Antigone

Antigone Avatar

Location: A house, in a Virginian Valley
Gender: Female
Zodiac: Aquarius
Chinese Yr: Rat


Posted: Aug 12, 2014 - 5:27am

 meower wrote:

As we have seen, suicide has captured the attention of most of the finest thinkers in Western civilization. The story of suicide, as fact and as idea, runs through Socrates and Aristotle, Cleopatra and Cicero, Judas and Jesus, Augustine and Aquinas, Dante and Maimonides, Chaucer and Shakespeare, Voltaire and Wittgenstein. The history of Western philosophy and religion is, among many other things, one long dialogue on the propriety of taking your own life.

This history reveals that even in the intensely personal matter of choosing whether or not to go on living, the ideas and beliefs of others can be a deciding factor. Thus it is critical that people have at least heard the arguments against suicide. My chief goal in writing this book has been to place these arguments on the shelf of common ideas, so that people have access to them. I believe fiercely in the position I have here put forward, but rather than seeking to convince everyone that my position is the only correct one, I am seeking to make sure that alongside arguments in favor of the right to suicide, people are also aware of this argument that we must endeavor to live. One man or woman in extreme distress might be beyond reaching, but another might be reached. No argument will convince everyone, but no one should die for want of knowing the philosophical thinking on staying alive. The arguments against suicide are precious because they may save lives and also because they may help make life happier. As we have seen, many thinkers have reported on the terrible experience of living with the temptation of suicide. People who have bouts of depression find life difficult enough without feeling as if it is up to them to justify their continued existence. I hope it will bring solace to know that there is a philosophical thread extending over twenty-five hundred years that urges us to use our courage to stay alive.

Religious people may be able to use these largely secular arguments against suicide, for belief in God is not always enough to stop a person from killing him- or herself. Still, the nonreligious reasons to stay alive chronicled in this book are especially important for those who do not believe in God, or at least not a God who is concerned with these matters. In particular, in our culture it is widely believed that secular philosophy is without exception open to suicide, and that the more decidedly nonreligious a philosophy is, the more decidedly affirming it is of suicide. We have seen where that idea came from, and we have seen that it is not true. A few secular thinkers have argued that we all have a right to suicide, but suicide was roundly rejected by Plato, by Aristotle, by Kant, by Schopenhauer, by Wittgenstein, and by Camus. We have seen that throughout history various authors and institutions have taken steps to influence people away from suicide. Our own era needs such influences as well. Many of the techniques used in the past do not make sense for us today—we certainly would not want to threaten people with postmortem exposure or torture. For us, knowing our history may be most valuable, as it shows us the broader context of our troubles.

Clear as it is that suicides can cause more suicides, it is clear that talking to people about rejecting suicide can help them reject suicide. Ideas matter. To stem the awful rise of suicide in our time, many things are surely needed, from easier access to mental health professionals to a general rise in economic security. Yet some of the problem can be addressed by talking about it. We need to actively reject suicide, and get this into our collective minds by reading it, speaking it, and hearing it, both one-on-one and in large communal settings. We sometimes need to be reminded that life is where everything happens, all forgiveness and all reunions. We can forget that we live in a web of significance and emotional interdependence with hundreds of other people. Sometimes the web is subtle, even imperceptible, but it is real. We forget to thank each other for staying. People can feel isolated in their dark thoughts, and learning that all of humanity suffers, at least some of the time, from such thoughts can help us to feel less alone.

Let us consider one last time the version of human existence depicted in Rembrandt’s painting of Lucretia. She has been wronged, she is deeply troubled, she is contemplating suicide, but she is still alive. There is something magical about this moment: she is in a state of inestimable significance. If we follow the logic set out by Kant, or that proposed by Wittgenstein, a person choosing to die or to live exists in the very crucible of human morality and meaning. Certainly it is a frightening thing to think about, but it yields fascinating insights about what it means to be human. From a practical standpoint, too, it makes sense to give thought to these issues. If we try to suppress the whole subject, if we quarantine suicide from our consciousness and from public conversation, we run the risk of suddenly confronting it, alone and unarmed, when we are most vulnerable. It is much better to remember that this is part of the human experience and to avail ourselves of the conceptual barriers to suicide that have been provided through history. When we cannot see our own worth and are tempted to leave life, we are doing a shining service to our community and to our future selves when we choose to stay. If there is one factor universally recognized as a route to happiness, it is to be of use to others. When you are tempted by suicide and you make the decision to reject it in part for the sake of community, you may gain some of the happiness that derives from simply being of use.

None of us can truly know what we mean to other people, and none of us can know what our future self will experience. History and philosophy ask us to remember these mysteries, to look around at friends, family, humanity, at the surprises life brings—the endless possibilities that living offers—and to persevere. There is love and insight to live for, bright moments to cherish, and even the possibility of happiness, and the chance of helping someone else through his or her own troubles. Know that people, through history and today, understand how much courage it takes to stay. Bear witness to the night side of being human and the bravery it entails, and wait for the sun. If we meditate on the record of human wisdom we may find there reason enough to persist and find our way back to happiness. The first step is to consider the arguments and evidence and choose to stay. After that, anything may happen.

First, choose to stay.
~~ Jennifer Michael Hecht     



 
{#Pray}
meower

meower Avatar

Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe
Gender: Female
Zodiac: Gemini


Posted: Aug 12, 2014 - 4:50am

As we have seen, suicide has captured the attention of most of the finest thinkers in Western civilization. The story of suicide, as fact and as idea, runs through Socrates and Aristotle, Cleopatra and Cicero, Judas and Jesus, Augustine and Aquinas, Dante and Maimonides, Chaucer and Shakespeare, Voltaire and Wittgenstein. The history of Western philosophy and religion is, among many other things, one long dialogue on the propriety of taking your own life.

This history reveals that even in the intensely personal matter of choosing whether or not to go on living, the ideas and beliefs of others can be a deciding factor. Thus it is critical that people have at least heard the arguments against suicide. My chief goal in writing this book has been to place these arguments on the shelf of common ideas, so that people have access to them. I believe fiercely in the position I have here put forward, but rather than seeking to convince everyone that my position is the only correct one, I am seeking to make sure that alongside arguments in favor of the right to suicide, people are also aware of this argument that we must endeavor to live. One man or woman in extreme distress might be beyond reaching, but another might be reached. No argument will convince everyone, but no one should die for want of knowing the philosophical thinking on staying alive. The arguments against suicide are precious because they may save lives and also because they may help make life happier. As we have seen, many thinkers have reported on the terrible experience of living with the temptation of suicide. People who have bouts of depression find life difficult enough without feeling as if it is up to them to justify their continued existence. I hope it will bring solace to know that there is a philosophical thread extending over twenty-five hundred years that urges us to use our courage to stay alive.

Religious people may be able to use these largely secular arguments against suicide, for belief in God is not always enough to stop a person from killing him- or herself. Still, the nonreligious reasons to stay alive chronicled in this book are especially important for those who do not believe in God, or at least not a God who is concerned with these matters. In particular, in our culture it is widely believed that secular philosophy is without exception open to suicide, and that the more decidedly nonreligious a philosophy is, the more decidedly affirming it is of suicide. We have seen where that idea came from, and we have seen that it is not true. A few secular thinkers have argued that we all have a right to suicide, but suicide was roundly rejected by Plato, by Aristotle, by Kant, by Schopenhauer, by Wittgenstein, and by Camus. We have seen that throughout history various authors and institutions have taken steps to influence people away from suicide. Our own era needs such influences as well. Many of the techniques used in the past do not make sense for us today—we certainly would not want to threaten people with postmortem exposure or torture. For us, knowing our history may be most valuable, as it shows us the broader context of our troubles.

Clear as it is that suicides can cause more suicides, it is clear that talking to people about rejecting suicide can help them reject suicide. Ideas matter. To stem the awful rise of suicide in our time, many things are surely needed, from easier access to mental health professionals to a general rise in economic security. Yet some of the problem can be addressed by talking about it. We need to actively reject suicide, and get this into our collective minds by reading it, speaking it, and hearing it, both one-on-one and in large communal settings. We sometimes need to be reminded that life is where everything happens, all forgiveness and all reunions. We can forget that we live in a web of significance and emotional interdependence with hundreds of other people. Sometimes the web is subtle, even imperceptible, but it is real. We forget to thank each other for staying. People can feel isolated in their dark thoughts, and learning that all of humanity suffers, at least some of the time, from such thoughts can help us to feel less alone.

Let us consider one last time the version of human existence depicted in Rembrandt’s painting of Lucretia. She has been wronged, she is deeply troubled, she is contemplating suicide, but she is still alive. There is something magical about this moment: she is in a state of inestimable significance. If we follow the logic set out by Kant, or that proposed by Wittgenstein, a person choosing to die or to live exists in the very crucible of human morality and meaning. Certainly it is a frightening thing to think about, but it yields fascinating insights about what it means to be human. From a practical standpoint, too, it makes sense to give thought to these issues. If we try to suppress the whole subject, if we quarantine suicide from our consciousness and from public conversation, we run the risk of suddenly confronting it, alone and unarmed, when we are most vulnerable. It is much better to remember that this is part of the human experience and to avail ourselves of the conceptual barriers to suicide that have been provided through history. When we cannot see our own worth and are tempted to leave life, we are doing a shining service to our community and to our future selves when we choose to stay. If there is one factor universally recognized as a route to happiness, it is to be of use to others. When you are tempted by suicide and you make the decision to reject it in part for the sake of community, you may gain some of the happiness that derives from simply being of use.

None of us can truly know what we mean to other people, and none of us can know what our future self will experience. History and philosophy ask us to remember these mysteries, to look around at friends, family, humanity, at the surprises life brings—the endless possibilities that living offers—and to persevere. There is love and insight to live for, bright moments to cherish, and even the possibility of happiness, and the chance of helping someone else through his or her own troubles. Know that people, through history and today, understand how much courage it takes to stay. Bear witness to the night side of being human and the bravery it entails, and wait for the sun. If we meditate on the record of human wisdom we may find there reason enough to persist and find our way back to happiness. The first step is to consider the arguments and evidence and choose to stay. After that, anything may happen.

First, choose to stay.


~~ Jennifer Michael Hecht     


lily34
STFU
lily34 Avatar

Location: GTFO
Gender: Female
Zodiac: Cancer
Chinese Yr: Monkey


Posted: Aug 11, 2014 - 6:25am

 Proclivities wrote:

Apparently it's a disorder called otorrohoea: an ear ailment.  "Imaginary Female Trouble" is another interesting one: "Gosh, that woman I imagined gives me nothing but trouble."

 

Coaxial
SHINE ON
Coaxial Avatar

Location: 543 miles west of Paradis,1491 miles east of Paradise
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Capricorn
Chinese Yr: Dragon


Posted: Aug 11, 2014 - 6:24am

 lily34 wrote:

that makes sense. i think i have many, many of these disorders on this list.

 
Yeah, if these were still in use there wouldn't be anyone to run the asylum because we'd all be inside.
Proclivities
Nothing is fool-proof to a moderately proficient fool.
Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Aries
Chinese Yr: Tiger


Posted: Aug 11, 2014 - 6:20am

 lily34 wrote:

i just...i can't even. i can't say which is what got me the most!
what DOES gathering in the head mean???

 
Apparently it's a disorder called otorrohoea: an ear ailment.  "Imaginary Female Trouble" is another interesting one: "Gosh, that woman I imagined gives me nothing but trouble."


lily34
STFU
lily34 Avatar

Location: GTFO
Gender: Female
Zodiac: Cancer
Chinese Yr: Monkey


Posted: Aug 11, 2014 - 6:17am

 Coaxial wrote:

I think that is when all the voices have a meeting in there....

 
that makes sense. i think i have many, many of these disorders on this list.
Coaxial
SHINE ON
Coaxial Avatar

Location: 543 miles west of Paradis,1491 miles east of Paradise
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Capricorn
Chinese Yr: Dragon


Posted: Aug 11, 2014 - 6:11am

 lily34 wrote:

i just...i can't even. i can't say which is what got me the most!
what DOES gathering in the head mean???

 
I think that is when all the voices have a meeting in there....
lily34
STFU
lily34 Avatar

Location: GTFO
Gender: Female
Zodiac: Cancer
Chinese Yr: Monkey


Posted: Aug 11, 2014 - 6:06am

 Proclivities wrote:

This list would also fit in the "Name My Band" thread - although "Bad Company" is already taken.  "Tonight only: The Vicious Vices appearing with Dropsy & The Business Nerves!"  I assume "Gathering In The Head" is a jam band.

 
i just...i can't even. i can't say which is what got me the most!
what DOES gathering in the head mean???
ScottN
Strike three? Ump, that wasn't even close
ScottN Avatar

Location: An inch above the K/T boundary. But smth near fracking still has appeal.
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Aries
Chinese Yr: Buffalo


Posted: Aug 11, 2014 - 5:55am

 RichardPrins wrote:Bad Whiskey got me.


Proclivities
Nothing is fool-proof to a moderately proficient fool.
Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Aries
Chinese Yr: Tiger


Posted: Aug 11, 2014 - 5:50am

 RichardPrins wrote:
“Reasons for Admission” to West Virginia’s Hospital for the Insane in the Late 1800s

 
This list would also fit in the "Name My Band" thread - although "Bad Company" is already taken.  "Tonight only: The Vicious Vices appearing with Dropsy & The Business Nerves!"  I assume "Gathering In The Head" is a jam band.


bokey
Bokey
bokey Avatar

Location: In hiding from the really scary internet tough guys
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 11, 2014 - 5:44am

 RichardPrins wrote:
“Reasons for Admission” to West Virginia’s Hospital for the Insane in the Late 1800s

 
 Masturbation for 30 years? No meal breaks?


lily34
STFU
lily34 Avatar

Location: GTFO
Gender: Female
Zodiac: Cancer
Chinese Yr: Monkey


Posted: Aug 11, 2014 - 5:39am

:wow:
RichardPrins
Anti-Procrustean
RichardPrins Avatar



Posted: Aug 10, 2014 - 9:45pm

“Reasons for Admission” to West Virginia’s Hospital for the Insane in the Late 1800s
Zukiwi
Summer ...
Zukiwi Avatar

Location: Montreal's suburb
Gender: Female
Zodiac: Aquarius
Chinese Yr: Rat


Posted: Aug 2, 2014 - 2:17pm

 miamizsun wrote:

{#Wave}

 
{#Smile} {#Wave}
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