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kcar
Posted: May 27, 2013 - 19:44
 

 rdo wrote:


{#Rolleyes}  I did not deny Cambodia was bombed, and was in secret.  Well, what exactly is the implication, Fred? That has been quite elusive with you.  Why do you come here and spew hateful rants against the US?   The American people supported the war.  Why?  If it was not for the stated purposes of stopping Stalinism then what was it for?  Kick and giggles?  
    

  

 
The American people supported the Vietnam War up to the Tet Offensive which started in late January '68. LBJ's approval rating fell 16 points to 47% by the end of February. 

We could argue all day about the domino theory, its relevance to Vietnam's domestic and international relations and the level of contemporary popular belief in it amongst the American public. I firmly believe, however, that the US government misled Americans about the immediate causes of the war (the Tonkin Gulf incident), the level of support even amongst South Vietnamese for a government largely led by a Catholic French-speaking elite, and the very real doubts that American leaders had about the winnability of the war.

When I say leaders, I include SecDef Robert McNamara (as early as '65) and LBJ himself.

The real tragedy is that there is now evidence that we could have reached an understanding with Ho Chi Minh and his advisors that could have avoided much of our military involvement there.

This last bit is from a lecture for a George Mason University course, found here: 


http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/122/vietnam/lecture.html

Ho Chi Minh had been educated in Paris and in the Soviet Union. He was an avowed communist, but also a believer in western style democracy and the American virtues of free speech. At heart he was a nationalist land reformer, primarily concerned with restoring Vietnam to the Vietnamese. Under colonial rule, land typically belongs to foreigners--to the colonizers. The profits from farming go disproportionally into the hands of foreign rulers, and native people are generally reduced to working as laborers for the colonial government. To nationalists--that is, people with a strong sense of their "nation" or culture--colonialism is inherently unfair and exploitative. Communist revolutionaries like Ho Chi Mihn typically focused on land reform--on getting control of land away from foreign corporations and investors and back into the hands of the local people. 

In Cuba, for example, the bulk of the nation's real estate had been in the hands of foreign investors since the Spanish Amerian war. Fidel Castro focused his revolutionary campaign on this issue of land. Castro had been educated at Columbia University in New York, where he had pitched on the baseball team. He initially looked to the US as an ally, but soon came to suspect that the US government was likely to favor the interests of the old colonial regime he had helped to overthrow.

During W.W.II, the French were expelled from Vietnam by Japan, which occupied Vietnam for most of the war, until the US victory. Ho Chi Mihn and his allies assisted US army intelligence in the war against the Japanese. Ho Chi Mihn was regarded very highly by US military personnel for his commitment to freedom and liberty and for his pro-American attitudes. Ho saw, or claimed to see, the US as an anti-colonial power which would be willing to help his people gain permanent independence. At end of W.W.II, Ho Chi Mihn was strongest in the Northern part of Vietnam, which was poorer but also less "colonized." After the Japanese were defeated, speaking from the northern city of Hanoi, Ho Chi Mihn declared Vietnamese independent of French rule. At a ceremony declaring this independence, Ho quoted Thomas Jefferson while the Star Spangled Banner played and American planes flew overhead. The new Vietnamese constitution drafted by Ho was based on and strongly resembled the US Constitution. Ho declared he looked forward to intimate and friendly relations with the US. He offered the US naval bases and promised that Vietnam "will be a fertile field for American capital and enterprise". 

Ho Chi Mihn was a communist, but he was also a practical politician, interested in what was best for Vietnam. He was friendly to the US, admired much of American politics, and preferred the US to the Soviets as an ally.



 

Carl
(The Summit City)
Posted: May 27, 2013 - 18:44
 

What the most recent posts said…

ccjemmett
Posted: Apr 26, 2013 - 10:25
 

For me, so far, the last of the truly great bands. 
ccjemmett
Posted: Apr 26, 2013 - 10:22
 

Never too much PT.   
Never 
billybob123
(Southern California)
Posted: Apr 17, 2013 - 12:43
 

Peace and tranquility - a worthy goal indeed.

1wolfy
(Mission Viejo California)
Posted: Apr 17, 2013 - 12:35
 

Peace and tranquility to earth {#Meditate}            ..before it is recycled

rdo
(DC)
Posted: Apr 05, 2013 - 04:40
 

 fredriley wrote:

Fiction, huh? Ok, try reading William Shawcross's Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon and the Destruction of Cambodia (1979), which was widely praised at the time and goes into forensic detail about Nixon and Kissinger's secret war against Cambodia. The bombing of Cambodia really happened, 00s of 000s were killed and maimed, Agent Orange poisoned the land and the people for generations, and all this paved the way for the Khmer Rouge and their murderous regime. Shawcross was a liberal and is now an arch-conservative, so in tune with your thinking I'm sure. If you want to accuse him of writing fiction, go ahead. I'll happily watch and LMAO whilst you're taken to bits.

My post didn't even mention "lucre" and "wealth", so plainly you've got some hobbyhorse you want to ride that has nothing to do with me. Read what folk write, not what you think they write. And the next time you accuse anyone of lying, prove it or retract and STFU.

This reminds me of the famous Tom Lehrer quote: ""Political satire became obsolete when Henry Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize."
 

{#Rolleyes}  I did not deny Cambodia was bombed, and was in secret.  Well, what exactly is the implication, Fred? That has been quite elusive with you.  Why do you come here and spew hateful rants against the US?   The American people supported the war.  Why?  If it was not for the stated purposes of stopping Stalinism then what was it for?  Kick and giggles?  
    

  

davidfarmerie
Posted: Mar 04, 2013 - 20:44
 

 fredriley wrote:

Fiction, huh? Ok, try reading William Shawcross's Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon and the Destruction of Cambodia (1979), which was widely praised at the time and goes into forensic detail about Nixon and Kissinger's secret war against Cambodia. The bombing of Cambodia really happened, 00s of 000s were killed and maimed, Agent Orange poisoned the land and the people for generations, and all this paved the way for the Khmer Rouge and their murderous regime. Shawcross was a liberal and is now an arch-conservative, so in tune with your thinking I'm sure. If you want to accuse him of writing fiction, go ahead. I'll happily watch and LMAO whilst you're taken to bits.

My post didn't even mention "lucre" and "wealth", so plainly you've got some hobbyhorse you want to ride that has nothing to do with me. Read what folk write, not what you think they write. And the next time you accuse anyone of lying, prove it or retract and STFU.

This reminds me of the famous Tom Lehrer quote: ""Political satire became obsolete when Henry Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize."
 
I'm not quite sure where this conversation thread began, as I originally came here just to post something about the musicians, and happened to notice the rhetoric. But after reading - especially the post that seemed to 'slam' the others, I felt compelled to offer a little concrete information.

I can assure you, as someone who was actually there, that the U.S 'did' in fact try to eliminate Cambodia. The destruction, as well as, the prolonged - and calculated  genocide was real, and horrific.  As for the brief comment, referring to "gooks", I can assure you that these "gooks", as you called them, bled the same as we did, suffered horrifically - as any other human being would suffer, and died in as much pain, and fear, as any other human being. Keep in mind, also, that it was 'their' country that was being invaded. They were not invading us, nor were they even provoking us. What Nixon, and Kissinger, did - as well as many others in power, was very un-American. And many Americans died for these agendas, as well - and just as needlessly as those throughout southeast Asia.

bam23
(Berkeley)
Posted: Feb 22, 2013 - 12:13
 

 fredriley wrote:

Fiction, huh? Ok, try reading William Shawcross's Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon and the Destruction of Cambodia (1979), which was widely praised at the time and goes into forensic detail about Nixon and Kissinger's secret war against Cambodia. The bombing of Cambodia really happened, 00s of 000s were killed and maimed, Agent Orange poisoned the land and the people for generations, and all this paved the way for the Khmer Rouge and their murderous regime. Shawcross was a liberal and is now an arch-conservative, so in tune with your thinking I'm sure. If you want to accuse him of writing fiction, go ahead. I'll happily watch and LMAO whilst you're taken to bits.

My post didn't even mention "lucre" and "wealth", so plainly you've got some hobbyhorse you want to ride that has nothing to do with me. Read what folk write, not what you think they write. And the next time you accuse anyone of lying, prove it or retract and STFU.

This reminds me of the famous Tom Lehrer quote: ""Political satire became obsolete when Henry Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize."
  Although I am not all that keen about a music-based site that veers into political discussions and digressions, the weight of evidence and honesty about the past lies with fred. The indisputable facts are that the US did conduct a hideous and unjustifiable war (secret, they thought)
in Cambodia that laid that impoverished country waste, and that this war and its attendant fallout did indeed lead to the rise of the Khmer Rouge. And indeed it was the esteemed Dr. Kissinger (beware those who insist on this honorific) along with the disgraceful and disgraced Nixon who, along with many sycophants, conducted this war. And, yes, the US has a great deal of responsibility for subsequent disasters that fragmented Cambodian society. Of course, it was Cambodians who did the evils on their own, so one cannot lay all the blame on the US.

1wolfy
(Mission Viejo California)
Posted: Feb 22, 2013 - 11:53
 

 rent The Deer Hunter..make u undastand..kingart wrote:

WHAT? 
 


kingart
(Brooklyn NY)
Posted: Feb 22, 2013 - 11:40
 

 westslope wrote:
.Gooks. Lots of dead gooks.
 
WHAT? 

westslope
(BC coast)
Posted: Feb 13, 2013 - 16:38
 

.Gooks. Lots of dead gooks.

fredriley
(Nottingham, UK)
Posted: Jan 13, 2013 - 09:02
 

 rdo wrote:

One of many priceless gems by you, Fred.  The implication being of course that Nixon (and the US citizenry, by extension) did not really care about world peace.  Instead, we were after all that lucre in Cambodia, and the extraordinary bounty of wealth we wanted to extract from SE Asia.  Are you sure instead of history you shouldn't be writing fiction?  You are a pretty good fiction writer.  Yeah, American citizens support indiscriminate killing for no purpose except to line our pockets.  That's the story of Vietnam.  Uh huh.  {#Liar}{#Rolleyes}
 
Fiction, huh? Ok, try reading William Shawcross's Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon and the Destruction of Cambodia (1979), which was widely praised at the time and goes into forensic detail about Nixon and Kissinger's secret war against Cambodia. The bombing of Cambodia really happened, 00s of 000s were killed and maimed, Agent Orange poisoned the land and the people for generations, and all this paved the way for the Khmer Rouge and their murderous regime. Shawcross was a liberal and is now an arch-conservative, so in tune with your thinking I'm sure. If you want to accuse him of writing fiction, go ahead. I'll happily watch and LMAO whilst you're taken to bits.

My post didn't even mention "lucre" and "wealth", so plainly you've got some hobbyhorse you want to ride that has nothing to do with me. Read what folk write, not what you think they write. And the next time you accuse anyone of lying, prove it or retract and STFU.

This reminds me of the famous Tom Lehrer quote: ""Political satire became obsolete when Henry Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize."

coy
(san antonio)
Posted: Jan 13, 2013 - 08:53
 

'because of what you have done
the heavens have become part of man's world' 

RIP dick

Otomi
(La orilla de la civilización)
Posted: Dec 21, 2012 - 22:19
 

 cShaggy wrote:
..like the cover art..anybody know if the plastic wrap look is an actual effect on there?..curiously yers.. ..ps: 8 >> 9 (with 10 coming quickly into view)..


No, somebody just scanned the package with the wrapper on it.

cShaggy
(..inna state of being..)
Posted: Dec 13, 2012 - 00:00
 

..like the cover art..anybody know if the plastic wrap look is an actual effect on there?..curiously yers..

..ps: 8 >> 9 (with 10 coming quickly into view)..

Dinges,_the_Dude
(below sea-level, N52°37', E4°88')
Posted: Dec 12, 2012 - 23:56
 

Just tune in and I only heard the last notes of this song... Too bad! PT is my new find!

Deadwing
(Cincinnati OH)
Posted: Nov 30, 2012 - 16:19
 

 ShaunJ wrote:

There is a killer version of Stars Die on the new cd Octane Twisted{#Bananajam}
 

Looking forward to getting that one. I saw The Incident tour 3 times (Cincy, Cleveland, and Ashville). I'm not a huge fan of that album, but I have lived and died by PT since 1996. I'll definitely be buying it in the next couple of weeks. I recently bought SW's Get All You Deserve- and it's just great. SW is having a blast with these session guys.

ShaunJ
(Tsawwassen, BC)
Posted: Nov 30, 2012 - 16:12
 

 Deadwing wrote:


Obviously, we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of all the myriad possibilities of the Universe.
We did take a first small step.
That in itself ended some of the mystery.   
 
There is a killer version of Stars Die on the new cd Octane Twisted{#Bananajam}

Deadwing
(Cincinnati OH)
Posted: Nov 30, 2012 - 16:10
 

 Imkirok wrote:

I think we're still a long way from the universe being demystified.  In fact, considering the best we've done so far is to take pictures from telescopes and haven't even sent a person to the nearest planet, I don't think we've even scratched the surface.
 

Obviously, we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of all the myriad possibilities of the Universe.
We did take a first small step.
That in itself ended some of the mystery.   

Imkirok
(The Arctic Hinter Land)
Posted: Nov 20, 2012 - 11:01
 

 Deadwing wrote:

From what I understand Stars Die refers to the demystification of the cosmos. The day we started knocking golfballs around and planting flags on the moon the mystery became a parking lot.

 
I think we're still a long way from the universe being demystified.  In fact, considering the best we've done so far is to take pictures from telescopes and haven't even sent a person to the nearest planet, I don't think we've even scratched the surface.



rdo
(DC)
Posted: Oct 30, 2012 - 08:03
 

 fredriley wrote:
I think that there's more than a touch of irony in quoting Tricky Dicky Nixon's famous self-aggrandising phone call to the Apollo astronauts, particularly the bit about "redoubling our efforts to bring about peace on Earth", when this is the same guy who carried out a secret war against Cambodia that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians and devastated the country. Nice going, Tricky.
 
One of many priceless gems by you, Fred.  The implication being of course that Nixon (and the US citizenry, by extension) did not really care about world peace.  Instead, we were after all that lucre in Cambodia, and the extraordinary bounty of wealth we wanted to extract from SE Asia.  Are you sure instead of history you shouldn't be writing fiction?  You are a pretty good fiction writer.  Yeah, American citizens support indiscriminate killing for no purpose except to line our pockets.  That's the story of Vietnam.  Uh huh.  {#Liar}{#Rolleyes}

FourFortyEight
Posted: Oct 30, 2012 - 07:57
 

Love Porcupine Tree!

Marzz_13
(Counting out the waves as they break on the shoreline.)
Posted: Sep 18, 2012 - 14:43
 

 westslope wrote:

Received the live Blue-Ray/DVD disc set — Anesthetize yesterday.

Amazing. 

 
Ah yes, that truly is one amazing DVD!  I've watched it so many times now I can't keep track anymore.  One of the best live performances captured on film.  I use it as a reference for my HT set-up.  Unlike other live DVD's, the movements of the band always match and sync perfectly with the music.  I can't tell you how many times I've seen other DVD's where you see the drummer out of sync with the music or playing a fill that doesn't match what you're hearing.  It's just sloppy editing, but it's far too common.  Steven Wilson no doubt was behind the production of this gem - making sure it was flawless.  If you like PT than you will love Anesthetize.  Highly Recommended by this Tree Nut.

westslope
(BC coast)
Posted: Sep 18, 2012 - 13:48
 

 Deadwing wrote:
...
From what I understand Stars Die refers to the demystification of the cosmos. The day we started knocking golfballs around and planting flags on the moon the mystery became a parking lot.

...
 
Rings true.  Most of us look better with our clothes on.

eswiley2
Posted: Aug 28, 2012 - 07:40
 

RIP Neil Armstrong....

tiny_tina_zuleta
(Colombia / The city of eternal spring)
Posted: Jul 17, 2012 - 15:47
 

the sounds of love...............{#Daisy}

westslope
(BC coast)
Posted: Jun 26, 2012 - 11:21
 

Received the live Blue-Ray/DVD disc set — Anesthetize yesterday.

Amazing. 



dragonlady
(Pasadena, CA)
Posted: May 25, 2012 - 14:42
 

Love, love, love me the PT!  {#Angel}

Furball2k
Posted: Apr 10, 2012 - 20:58
 

Heard this song once on RP fell in LOVE:
Both with the person I was with and the song :-) 

stub30
(East Wenatchee)
Posted: Apr 04, 2012 - 14:58
 

 westslope wrote:

Sweet.  Never got organized to attend. :-(   

 

Please report back!  And enjoy!!!

 

I definitely will enjoy!!! 

westslope
(BC coast)
Posted: Apr 04, 2012 - 14:53
 

 stub30 wrote:
Heading over to Seattle tonight to see Steven's Grace for Drowning show at the Showbox. 
 

Sweet.  Never got organized to attend. :-(   

 

Please report back!  And enjoy!!!



stub30
(East Wenatchee)
Posted: Apr 04, 2012 - 14:51
 

Heading over to Seattle tonight to see Steven's Grace for Drowning show at the Showbox. 

westslope
(BC coast)
Posted: Apr 04, 2012 - 14:51
 

 cohifi wrote:
Hey!  Is this PT for everyone else, too?  Good
 
Welcome to one of the gateway songs.   Dangerous stuff. 

meinthecorner
(Past the gravy, far beyond the golden fries)
Posted: Mar 03, 2012 - 22:26
 

Lovin' this!!

cohifi
(Denver)
Posted: Mar 03, 2012 - 22:24
 

Hey!  Is this PT for everyone else, too?  Good

westslope
(BC coast)
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 - 10:48
 

 Propayne wrote:

Steven Wilson and Opeth singer and guitarist Mikael Akerfeldt have a CD coming out soon, I do believe.
 
Looking forward to it.


robco1
(Chicago, IL)
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 - 10:44
 

 Deadwing wrote:
I'm pretty sure I've posted this thought before (too lazy to skim back through all the pages to look  LOL)

From what I understand Stars Die refers to the demystification of the cosmos. The day we started knocking golfballs around and planting flags on the moon the mystery became a parking lot.

But hey, it's SW, ask him again next week and you might get a completely different answer. You all KNOW how he is and being cryptic is in his genetic code.    {#Roflol}
 
{#Roflol}

garycha
(Bristol, UK)
Posted: Feb 10, 2012 - 03:40
 

Reminds me of my dad.

Melancholy. Nice

Proclivities
(Carrboro, NC)
Posted: Feb 01, 2012 - 06:04
 

 scraig wrote:
"Oval room"? What president would call it the oval room?
  
There is an official "(Yellow) Oval Room" in the White House, in addition to the "Oval Office".


Propayne
(Richmond VA)
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 - 10:50
 

 horstman wrote:

They played it at the Buffalo NY show I went to last year (2010). It was ethereal. They also played buying new soul which was a total kick in the pants.

Many here have accused PT of being overly produced and while Steven and Co are great producers, when you see them live, the music still holds up incredibly well, in some instances being better than studio. So it's not so much "overproduced" as it is produced correctly.

Still my favorite band. Opeth is moving up though (very good friends with PT).
 
Steven Wilson and Opeth singer and guitarist Mikael Akerfeldt have a CD coming out soon, I do believe.

scraig
(Santa Barbara, CA)
Posted: Jan 19, 2012 - 16:30
 

"Oval room"? What president would call it the oval room?

MiracleDrug
(Earth)
Posted: Jan 09, 2012 - 07:51
 

EVERY time I hear a tune like this that I haven't heard before...

and I think "WOW how nicely done"...

it is inevitably PT....


horstman
(Syracuse, New York)
Posted: Dec 08, 2011 - 13:07
 

 ShaunJ wrote:


Would love to hear this one "live" {#Drummer}
Just received Steven Wilson's new CD Grace For Drowning
 
They played it at the Buffalo NY show I went to last year (2010). It was ethereal. They also played buying new soul which was a total kick in the pants.

Many here have accused PT of being overly produced and while Steven and Co are great producers, when you see them live, the music still holds up incredibly well, in some instances being better than studio. So it's not so much "overproduced" as it is produced correctly.

Still my favorite band. Opeth is moving up though (very good friends with PT).


ShaunJ
(Tsawwassen, BC)
Posted: Dec 08, 2011 - 12:40
 

 hippiechick wrote:

Yup.

And if you like PT, pick up Steven Wilson's albums.

 

Would love to hear this one "live" {#Drummer}
Just received Steven Wilson's new CD Grace For Drowning

Jelani
(Home of the freak, land of the vague)
Posted: Dec 08, 2011 - 12:39
 

 roulleau wrote:
I don't mean to be a hater, as this is obviously a band that is close to the hearts of many in the RP community.

I just don't get it.

Sucko-Barfo
 
I rate this comment a solid TEN.

hippiechick
(topsy turvy land)
Posted: Dec 08, 2011 - 12:35
 

 smackiepipe wrote:
Still a 10.
 
Yup.

And if you like PT, pick up Steven Wilson's albums.


On_The_Beach
(The Blue Planet)
Posted: Nov 29, 2011 - 17:41
 

 Harryorgans wrote:
I know the "best band ever" argument is silly and hyperbolic but in PT's case (and SW's music generally) it's true. They are the best band ever. In fact, it's a good thing Steven is so prolific because there's very little other music left worth listening to after you've been bitten by PT. Just sayin'
 
You forgot the "IMO"!     ; )


Harryorgans
Posted: Nov 18, 2011 - 06:07
 

I know the "best band ever" argument is silly and hyperbolic but in PT's case (and SW's music generally) it's true. They are the best band ever. In fact, it's a good thing Steven is so prolific because there's very little other music left worth listening to after you've been bitten by PT. Just sayin'

westslope
(BC coast)
Posted: Oct 29, 2011 - 03:03
 

 Relayer wrote:
Considering the less than stellar release from Radiohead recently, I am going to say that Porcupine Tree can now claim to be the true heirs to the title of greatest current prog/art/space rock band since Pink Floyd.
 
Hear! Hear!