I think there are very few certainties in life, but when someone takes that dreadful step, I think we can be certain that the pain was so bad that it could not be bore any longer.   How the fuck can you know what that feels like?   Weak?  Was David Foster Wallace weak?  He'd eat you up and spit you out without even noticing it.

Suicide is selfish because it hurts the ones that they leave behind who love them, that is as selfish as you can get, end of story.
BTW, I am as agnostic as the day is long and have absolutely nothing to do with Christianity or organized religion of any kind. I didn't even know that this suicide is selfish notion had anything to do with Christianity at all and quite frankly don't give a damn what Chrisitans think.

This is a fascinating thread because both Smith and Cobain were acknowledged depressives and master tunesmiths, whose lyrics mirrored the difficulty they had with living from day to day—torture if you will. Are they any different from similarly displaced souls who merely had their death wishes fulfilled by their own hand but without the suicidal drama: Jim Morrison, Hendrix, Janis, Brad Nowell, Shannon Hoon, and so on? I disagree with sirdroseph and the generally Christian notion that suicide is "selfish," other than it is certainly an act of self. It's your life, most likely the only chance you have, and I think if you want to end it, that's a choice only you can make. But "selfish" in the sense that you're depriving someone else of something or you're hoarding something or other? Hardly.

Oh, and before you flame me, I was raised Catholic and had long and substantive experience with the "selfish" argument. Peace, okay?

This is a fascinating thread because both Smith and Cobain were acknowledged depressives and master tunesmiths, whose lyrics mirrored the difficulty they had with living from day to day—torture if you will. Are they any different from similarly displaced souls who merely had their death wishes fulfilled by their own hand but without the suicidal drama: Jim Morrison, Hendrix, Janis, Brad Nowell, Shannon Hoon, and so on? I disagree with sirdroseph and the generally Christian notion that suicide is "selfish," other than it is certainly an act of self. It's your life, most likely the only chance you have, and I think if you want to end it, that's a choice only you can make. But "selfish" in the sense that you're depriving someone else of something or you're hoarding something or other? Hardly.

Oh, and before you flame me, I was raised Catholic and had long and substantive experience with the "selfish" argument. Peace, okay?

I have a hard time with Elliott Smith and also Kurt Cobain.  They both wrote a bunch of extremely seductive, melodic songs, the lyrics of which were mostly bitter descriptions of how terrible life is. Then they killed themselves. What is the meaning of this?  Were their songs a cry for help?  Or just a byproduct of their depression?  Was there ever any hope for them, or was their suicidal end just the final destination of a trajectory that was established long before they even got into the music business?

All that background noise makes it hard to just appreciate the performance. I can't separate the song from the suicide. I guess that's why musical part is so arresting. It has to be, because otherwise, why would anyone listen to such agonized sentiments?

Kurt and Elliott may even have felt that if they didn't kill themselves, then their lyrics would be a lie.

You know, I don't even care. The music is all that matters and if it has a wonderful melody that makes the listener happy, I don't really give a damn whether they were happy or sad. Quite frankly, suicide is for the weak and selfish unless of course, you are terminally ill anyway, but that is a totally different subject.

I have a hard time with Elliott Smith and also Kurt Cobain.  They both wrote a bunch of extremely seductive, melodic songs, the lyrics of which were mostly bitter descriptions of how terrible life is. Then they killed themselves. What is the meaning of this?  Were their songs a cry for help?  Or just a byproduct of their depression?  Was there ever any hope for them, or was their suicidal end just the final destination of a trajectory that was established long before they even got into the music business?

All that background noise makes it hard to just appreciate the performance. I can't separate the song from the suicide. I guess that's why musical part is so arresting. It has to be, because otherwise, why would anyone listen to such agonized sentiments?

Kurt and Elliott may even have felt that if they didn't kill themselves, then their lyrics would be a lie.

Love this. Elliott Smith and The Shins are two of my RP Favorites; I hear similarities in both their styles that really makes me smile.

...Kurt and Elliott may even have felt that if they didn't kill themselves, then their lyrics would be a lie.

Man, listening to his music, suicide was not a far stretch. He had a wonderful sense of melody though and will be sorely missed!

He said Johnnie Walker Red-prefer Black, Gold, Green, or Blue.  Red will do in a pinch.

Elliott Smith - Miss Misery
Emory Joseph - Brown Eyed Women
Jefferson Airplane - Embryonic Journey
The Shins - New Slang
Porcupine Tree - Lightbulb Sun

Bill & Rebecca, you made my morning! Did you plan this just for me?   Much appreciated, either way! 

Great song...the only good thing to come out of Good Will Hunting...