R_P wrote:

Oh, I am not excusing any of the abuses of power that the US have been guilty of since WWII nor am I saying that the US is a paragon of accountability. All I am saying is that of the three, the US has the most accountability.  Paradoxically, Trump is perfect proof that democracy is actually alive and kicking in the US. You can't say that about either Russia or China.

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Sounds like special pleading and another gratuitous rim-job.

 R_P wrote:

Why, thank you. Now for my next act.. let's talk about your blithe disdain for the plight of the Uighurs but foaming-at-the-mouth outrage about the plight of the Palestinians. Shall we go on? 

.. maybe not. The point stands, you are only outraged when you can blame it on the U.S. If it is Russia or China, you turn a blind eye. Yet of the great powers, the U.S. is the one with the most accountability. Ergo your true target is not the source of moral outrage, but the accountability for it.

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Bravo! Hubris too.

 R_P wrote:
Well, you are pulling precious little left out of yours, FWIW.

re the NATO expansion hypothesis:
the timeline simply doesn't fit. 
Firstly, NATO already had a direct border with Russia.
Secondly, the Cuban missile analogy has been obsolete ever since the advent of nuclear submarines.
Thirdly, Putin himself has repeatedly asserted the goal is to recreate the Soviet empire, so this is obviously not about self-defence but hegemony, a position reiterated every night on Russian state TV.
Fourthly, Russia's recent wars of aggression march across the map from east to west  Chechnya, Georgia, Aleppo, Crimea, rest of Ukraine
Fifthly, the Maiden uprising was followed by Belarus electing a non-Russian-puppet government, which was put down by force, followed shortly thereafter by the full blown attack on Ukraine.

It is not NATO that freaks out Putin, it is the fear of losing control over his own country in the face of spreading western pluralism that freaks him out. 

And finally, if you really think that NATO was seriously behind this, then it has done a spectacularly bad job of it. I mean not arming your vassals for a full six months while they fight the supposed demon, is one thing, something that one could possibly ascribe to MAGA, but from the get go, the west has gone to enormous lengths to hamstring its own response. Were they truly the aggressor here, they wouldn't have done that. 

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Denial as well as a self-serving "Putin Versteher?" Nope, NATO was warned...

You pull too much right out of your backside.

And that includes prescribing "the only credible argument." Hubris to the end.

 R_P wrote:
That's not hysteria. That is what the Russian regime itself is saying. Tone from the top and all that. 
Hang on, weren't you also on the "Russia is not going to invade bandwagon" pre February 2022?

You know R_P, the only credible argument to raise against western pluralism that progressives have is that western  pluralism is hollow, democracy a charade and that all media are in the hands in of the ruling elite who are milking the system to their own advantage and to the detriment of everyone else. 
It's not an argument I agree with but it is an argument that has certain merits and is logically consistent with what one would commonly understand under the term "progressive".

But when you then hold up the most despotic regimes and one-party states as the preferred alternative, then I can't help but call foul. 

The necessary conclusion is that iIt's not democracy or pluralism you are after. What is it then? 

Maybe  you are mourning the demise of the Dutch empire? I mean some country somewhere must offer the holy grail of autocracy and  true one party rule..  Maybe it's China? 
Face it. At heart you actually are a reactionary and philosophically very close to ThisBody who also mourns the certainty of monarchy to resolve the inherent messiness of democracy.
That's not progressive. That's regressive.

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
The obvious hysteria suggests otherwise: "the suitcases are ready" because "it won't be long before the Russians invade Germany again!!!1!!". Heil NATO! Mildly paraphrased.

I'm not Sinophobic either because I like Chinese food...

 R_P wrote:
Richard the Reactionary fires another salvo!!

for the record, I'm not Russophobic in the slightest. There is a ton of Russian literature and music that I love.. I have no problem with Russia.
No, I'm just phobic towards autocratic regimes that turn toxic, which seems to be quite prevalent in regimes that feel no accountability to anyone but themselves.  

Recommended reading for befuddled progressives 

Russophobic "centrist" cheerleader for (yet another failing) war shoots the messenger. TL;DR x 2.

Sounds a lot like Trump fulminating against "the leftist marxist radicals." Onward to China!

 R_P wrote:

To be taken with a hefty grain of salt.

Always find it amusing to see these progressive types get so absorbed by their hatred of US hegemony that they end up plugging away for what is ultimately the restoration of feudalism, to the point of pushing MAGA narratives.  Hunter Biden! Burisma! Democratic interference in US elections.! Blah blah blah.

There is an old Soviet joke:
Who is a communist? Someone who has read the works of Marx.
And who is an anti-communist? Someone who has read the works of Marx and understood it.

"Progressive" voices, like Maté (and there are a lot here in Germany too)  are great examples of this confusion. They ultimately end up denying Ukrainian agency, whitewash Russian imperialism and its war crimes and seek to blame the whole thing on US machinations, thereby ignoring the bigger picture, namely that there is a fundamental historic trend away from autocratic states because they generally fail to give the people the freedoms they want, be it in Ukraine, Georgia, Iran, etc. 

They think they are "Marxist" or at least "progressive" but don't seem to have understood what that means. They are anti-capitalist but overlook the fact that capitalism was/is a necessary step towards more advanced social organisation, at least according to Marx, if you are into that sort of thing, and has also been the cause of the most amazing increase in wealth and well-being that the world has ever seen. 

Marx himself said that class consciousness can only evolve from the historic progression from feudalism, through the bourgeoisie and capitalism towards class consciousness, yet here we have all these people who openly call themselves "left-wing" and "progressive" trying to push history into reverse, avoiding capitalism by embracing feudal rule and serfdom.  Kind of loopy if you ask me.

Anyway, back to the topic in hand. Maybe we just forget Marx and these confused progressives marching in lockstep into the past and simply ask the people themselves what they want:

Ukraine
Georgia
Belarus

Looks pretty clear to me. Even Belarus, which has the closest ties to Russia, wants no part of its imperialist war. And if it didn't have a rabid bully breathing down its neck, I'm pretty sure they too would join the EU.

 haresfur wrote:
TL;DR?

 R_P wrote:

What have 100 years of Russian meddling in Ukraine wrought? Spoiler Alert not democracy for the areas they control

It is the lack of "meddling by Obama and W Europe when Russia annexed Crimea that was the biggest blow to democracy.

Your revisionist history is tiresome

What 10 Years of U.S. Meddling in Ukraine Have Wrought (Spoiler Alert: Not Democracy)
Aaron Maté

Anonymat: France sends combat troops to Ukraine battlefront (Asia Times)

Hard to believe, yet apparently true - by crossing a red line for Russia, the French are risking a nuclear WW-III by positioning themselves to be knocked out first. Let's make no mistake: The whole capitalist western war-machine and their media and politics have been driving this for many years.
Meanwhile, German politicians are discussing alternative papers for the richer Ukrainians escaping their home-front draft, while some argue they already receive more benefits than German citizens do. The Greens, warmonger-party no. 1 are at it again.

Me thinks, this is the wrong movie that I'm in.

Ukraine is running out of battlefield options

The “best case” scenario offered for Ukraine by sympathetic analysts, of denting Russia’s advance while simultaneously building up new forces for an offensive push next year, already looks improbable. Ukraine direly needs whatever men and materiel it can scrape together at the front, right now. While a total Ukrainian collapse does not yet look imminent, the choices available to Kyiv are narrowing every day: recapturing Russian-held territory, still the West’s stated strategy, is a non-starter, while the defence of what Ukraine still holds is increasingly challenging. Unless Ukraine’s battered forces can blunt Russia’s offensive soon, the calls for direct Western intervention will only grow louder.

 R_P wrote:

Guess they should use press gangs in Nepal, like the Russians do.

Aid won’t fix Ukraine’s recruitment crisis

Ukraine has two problems. The first is economic. The country runs an enormous trade deficit which needs to be financed with foreign capital inflows or else the Ukrainian currency, the hryvnia, will collapse, which could plunge the country into hyperinflation and political instability. The aid package, together with the European equivalent passed a few months ago, staves off this outcome for a few months.

The second problem is a military one. First of all, the Ukrainians are experiencing a personnel crisis. They have already sent much of their male population to be killed or injured on the frontline and they are now having trouble pressing more men into service. Obviously, an aid bill cannot help with this grim reality. Secondly, they have severe weapons and ammunition shortages. American lawmakers say that the aid package will solve this by providing more weapons, but the reality is that these weapons do not exist because the Western powers lack the industrial power to produce them.

This is where the potential for a legitimacy crisis comes in. Supporters of the package have now promised that it will keep the Russian army at bay. Yet it is becoming increasingly clear that Ukrainian defence lines are buckling and there is even chatter that the city of Kharkiv might fall to the Russians in the coming weeks. Some are speculating that Russia might be gearing up for a major offensive either in spring or summer.

 Beaker wrote: 
Yeah, my bad.  I got stupid.  Back when it was even crazier I used to copy everything I had done before hitting submit to prevent things from disappearing.  Things have been functioning rather smoothly lately and shit happens.  This wasn't an RP problem, my internet went out in the middle of the posting process unbeknownst to me and I lost stuff hitting refresh finding that the net was not connected.  Back to the old copy for just in case.

Munged, eh ?  I had to google that one.  yeah, right.  The curse of intelligence.  

 islander wrote:
That's one of several well-known RP forum issues, not the fault of any poster.  Anyone with enough savvy to flip the reply display to html mode and tweak accordingly, knows this. 

The coding for this discussion forum to fix the bugs hasn't been updated in ages - and as the forum content offered brings little value to RP, I can't say I blame them.